What is a Fair Rake?
 

We've had lot's of discussion on what rake is beatable, but has anyone guessed at what a fair rake is for a cardroom?
Does it vary by location?

By fair I mean enough for the room to pay its employees a living wage and turn a profit. And low enough that good players can still win at poker.

For simplicity, assume the room has only small and medium stakes nlhe and lhe games.

Re: What is a Fair Rake?
 

This is an interesting question, but I'm not sure it is answerable. Overhead varies greatly from locale to locale.

I've beaten backroom games with rakes that would give our California posters heart attacks, but 99% of these games whithered and died.

I guess the only answer is: whatever the market will bear.

Re: What is a Fair Rake?
 

Also along these lines, I have always wondered how much more rake I should be willing to pay if the room is underground. I think it is fair for them to charge more since they are taking a larger risk than a legal room.

Re: What is a Fair Rake?
 

Clearly, in the west, whatever the market will bear is "fair". That will always be the best (if not most helpful) answer.

I think it's an interesting question for the Vegas market in particular (though I'm sure other markets are in similar circumstances).

I had always (at least since the current boom--since around 2002) heard (total 2nd hand rumour, but makes sense) that pretty much every card room along the strip (save the Bellagio) is pretty much a loss-leader (and the B isn't just rakin' it in hand over fist).

If it's the case that many houses only open up card rooms because they're a full service property and one of the things full service properties are sposed to have these days is a card room; if that's the case, then the question as to a "fair" rake kinda takes on a different light.

I think if that's the situation, one could make a pretty good case that fair could be defined as anything less than unconscionable. Basically, this is a situation where the seller is only offering the product because a sizeable number of their consumers desires it. The seller will never make as much off of this product as it does off of other, but provides it nontheless so the consumer will not choose a different property.

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By fair I mean enough for the room to pay its employees a living wage and turn a profit. And low enough that good players can still win at poker.


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If this is offered as your opinion on how to define "fair", ok. I disagree.

If this is a parameter as to how you want "fair" defined in the discussion on this thread, then disregard all I have to contribute.

Re: What is a Fair Rake?
 

$0.50 per hand.

Re: What is a Fair Rake?
 

What is a meaningless question?

Re: What is a Fair Rake?
 

1% up to $1 on all games, regardless of limits.

Re: What is a Fair Rake?
 

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Also along these lines, I have always wondered how much more rake I should be willing to pay if the room is underground. I think it is fair for them to charge more since they are taking a larger risk than a legal room.

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The players are assuming a lot of risk too. I think it should be lower. If one had a choice between an underground and a B&M, what would make one prefer the club?

Re: What is a Fair Rake?
 

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Also along these lines, I have always wondered how much more rake I should be willing to pay if the room is underground. I think it is fair for them to charge more since they are taking a larger risk than a legal room.

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The players are assuming a lot of risk too. I think it should be lower. If one had a choice between an underground and a B&M, what would make one prefer the club?

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Both the players and the operators face bigger risks in a black market game. The former reduces demand, the latter reduces supply. The effect on price (rake) could be either way, depending on which effect is more important.

In practice, my understanding is that rake is indeed generally higher at underground games. This matches my intuition, since the increase in risk assumed by the players (loss of cash on hand due to robbery/raid, very low risk of actual legal trouble) strikes me as less important than the increase in risk assumed by the operators (loss of cash on hand due to robbery, loss of all proceeds from business due to civil forfeiture, significant risk of going to jail).

Re: What is a Fair Rake?
 

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If one had a choice between an underground and a B&M, what would make one prefer the club?

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Massive, and I mean like prehistoricly large, donkeys.

Re: What is a Fair Rake?
 

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Clearly, in the west, whatever the market will bear is "fair". That will always be the best (if not most helpful) answer.

I think it's an interesting question for the Vegas market in particular (though I'm sure other markets are in similar circumstances).

I had always (at least since the current boom--since around 2002) heard (total 2nd hand rumour, but makes sense) that pretty much every card room along the strip (save the Bellagio) is pretty much a loss-leader (and the B isn't just rakin' it in hand over fist).

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Foxwoods in my area, certainly turns a profit. They have the advantage of being a monopoly. Of course, staff assures us it doesn't match the other gaming revenue.

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If it's the case that many houses only open up card rooms because they're a full service property and one of the things full service properties are sposed to have these days is a card room; if that's the case, then the question as to a "fair" rake kinda takes on a different light.

I think if that's the situation, one could make a pretty good case that fair could be defined as anything less than unconscionable. Basically, this is a situation where the seller is only offering the product because a sizeable number of their consumers desires it. The seller will never make as much off of this product as it does off of other, but provides it nontheless so the consumer will not choose a different property.

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I suppose it changes if we look at it that way. You could even go as far to say the room should be rake free if it is just a loss leader.

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By fair I mean enough for the room to pay its employees a living wage and turn a profit. And low enough that good players can still win at poker.


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If this is offered as your opinion on how to define "fair", ok. I disagree.

If this is a parameter as to how you want "fair" defined in the discussion on this thread, then disregard all I have to contribute.

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Why? It read just fine to me.

Re: What is a Fair Rake?
 

Why should a fair rake necessarily be a beatable rake? I sometimes play in a room which spreads 2/4 LHE. For people playing at those stakes, I don't really care if they are playing at an unbeatable rake, I just want the rake to be low enough to allow the players to come out a winner some of the time so they move up to 3/6 where they might go on a rush to move up again or dump their winnings to someone who will move up.

Re: What is a Fair Rake?
 

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Why should a fair rake necessarily be a beatable rake? I sometimes play in a room which spreads 2/4 LHE. For people playing at those stakes, I don't really care if they are playing at an unbeatable rake, I just want the rake to be low enough to allow the players to come out a winner some of the time so they move up to 3/6 where they might go on a rush to move up again or dump their winnings to someone who will move up.

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That's the intersting thing about inflation. It wouldn't matter if the stakes were also raised.

Re: What is a Fair Rake?
 

$1 per pot. About $30 an hour coming off the table is fair.

Re: What is a Fair Rake?
 

Considering minimum wage is like $6.50 an hour, i think $3 per hour per person is fair.

Re: What is a Fair Rake?
 

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Considering minimum wage is like $6.50 an hour, i think $3 per hour per person is fair.

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I think the casino has quite a few more costs than just the dealer's salary. Floorpeople, security, management, heating & A/C, taxes, electricity, cards, chip runners, cage workers, etc...plus, they also "need" to turn a profit, or else, why would they be there in the first place? To set up a "fair" game for you & me??? I don't think so.

Re: What is a Fair Rake?
 

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By fair I mean enough for the room to pay its employees a living wage and turn a profit. And low enough that good players can still win at poker.

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If this is offered as your opinion on how to define "fair", ok. I disagree.

If this is a parameter as to how you want "fair" defined in the discussion on this thread, then disregard all I have to contribute.


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Why? It read just fine to me.

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It wasn't clear to me what the goal of the thread was to be.

1) "Fair" will be defined as "x". Solve for y (where y is a $).

2) What is the nature of "fair" as it relates to the rake in a cardroom. Given that definition, what would a "fair" rake be?

Re: What is a Fair Rake?
 

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Considering minimum wage is like $6.50 an hour, i think $3 per hour per person is fair.

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I think the casino has quite a few more costs than just the dealer's salary. Floorpeople, security, management, heating & A/C, taxes, electricity, cards, chip runners, cage workers, etc...plus, they also "need" to turn a profit, or else, why would they be there in the first place? To set up a "fair" game for you & me??? I don't think so.

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In some markets, the casino lobby pushes through laws that ban playing poker in home games. Since they have secured a monopoly for themselves then they should have to make it fair. Whether they do or not is another issue.

Re: What is a Fair Rake?
 

I always bought into the 'loss leader' crap. Then I started thinking...

How much money does a $10 blackjack table make?

Assuming a huge 2% house edge and 6 people at the table, 80 hands per hour (estimating), gives us $96 per hour this table makes in EV for the casino.

Add to the fact that poker is 0 risk to the casino (poker cheaters cheat each other, not the casino), these $5+$1 rakes at 30 hands/hour is awful. Dealers dont get $1 tip after I win a $15 hand at blackjack either.

I'm going to go riot now, who's with me!!!!

Re: What is a Fair Rake?
 

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Considering minimum wage is like $6.50 an hour, i think $3 per hour per person is fair.

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I think the casino has quite a few more costs than just the dealer's salary. Floorpeople, security, management, heating & A/C, taxes, electricity, cards, chip runners, cage workers, etc...plus, they also "need" to turn a profit, or else, why would they be there in the first place? To set up a "fair" game for you & me??? I don't think so.

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In some markets, the casino lobby pushes through laws that ban playing poker in home games. Since they have secured a monopoly for themselves then they should have to make it fair. Whether they do or not is another issue.

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Can you give me one instance of poker home games becoming illegal only after the legalization of casino poker?

Re: What is a Fair Rake?
 

37% up to $1 million.

Re: What is a Fair Rake?
 

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37% up to $1 million.

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thats about what we have here in Texas (where TX-HE isn't legal dammit). Its quite common for the rake to be 10% up to $10, plus a $2 bad beat jackpot drop per hand. Damn underground cardrooms but what can ya do..

You CA/NV ppl are spoiled rotten..

BB

Re: What is a Fair Rake?
 

It's probably closer to 100+ hands per hour especially with auto shufflers. Also you're neglecting the fact that a lot of people on those tables don't bet the minimum.

Re: What is a Fair Rake?
 

I don't play blackjack too often, but at 2% edge (basic strat is 1%?), the table would have to produce $5000 worth of bets per hour to be worth $100 to the casino.

I'm sure friday/saturday night this happens, but on average, I see a lot of BJ dealers standing around doing nothing, or dealing HU.

on a per-table weekly basis, I'd take a random poker table over a BJ table or craps table, and even lay odds. Not an expert, but going with my gut here. What do you think?

Re: What is a Fair Rake?
 

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I don't play blackjack too often, but at 2% edge (basic strat is 1%?), the table would have to produce $5000 worth of bets per hour to be worth $100 to the casino.

I'm sure friday/saturday night this happens, but on average, I see a lot of BJ dealers standing around doing nothing, or dealing HU.

on a per-table weekly basis, I'd take a random poker table over a BJ table or craps table, and even lay odds. Not an expert, but going with my gut here. What do you think?


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I think that you're missing a key element in your analysis. Poker revenue is steady table vs. table. What I mean is, a full table playing "X" size game is going to generate "Y" revenue per hour. If the game is played at 100X size, the casino may realise 1.5Y or even 2Y.

The beauty of gaming as a business model is that it is one of the few (if not the only) endevours where diminishing utility returns don't really apply. If anything, the opposite is true. One's desire to consume (gamble) is in proportion to one's resourses. The more you have, the more you must bet to get that excited feelin' deep in your innards.

The point is, there's a reason you see dead spreads all over the place out in the pit and you see lists that are 20+ names of people waiting to play in the poker room.

Re: What is a Fair Rake?
 

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Considering minimum wage is like $6.50 an hour, i think $3 per hour per person is fair.

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I think the casino has quite a few more costs than just the dealer's salary. Floorpeople, security, management, heating & A/C, taxes, electricity, cards, chip runners, cage workers, etc...plus, they also "need" to turn a profit, or else, why would they be there in the first place? To set up a "fair" game for you & me??? I don't think so.

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In some markets, the casino lobby pushes through laws that ban playing poker in home games. Since they have secured a monopoly for themselves then they should have to make it fair. Whether they do or not is another issue.

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Can you give me one instance of poker home games becoming illegal only after the legalization of casino poker?

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No I don't know the legal history that well. I have heard places in the West, Texas and Oklahoma started cracking down on poker games after casinos opened rooms.

Also there is an amendment in Mass. that would ban online gambling as part of the casino bill.

Re: What is a Fair Rake?
 

Agreed.

Re: What is a Fair Rake?
 

$1/hand? Wow if only... I'm also in TX and we take our underground poker at the price it is offered unfortunately.

That means a 1/2 game with sometimes less than $1k total on the table and $5max 10% rake + $2 of jackpots for $7/hand possibly coming off the table. Not counting the jackasses that tip $5 when then win a big pot. Yep, possibly > 1% of the money on the table gone each hand due to rake + tip - brilliant.

I go to OK and they have $6max on 2/5 and it feels like a friggin sale.