A very interesting ethics situation and a Bellagio Floor ruling
 

10-20 NL

Player 1 is a Bellagio regular who seems to be friendly with the floor and is likely a winning player. Doesn't seem to be an angle shooter at all, in fact in discussion he seems to be personable and honest in matters not related to poker.

Player 2 is more of a Wynn regular who is sort of arrogant but mostly quiet.


About an hour before this situation takes place my end of the table was discussing action out of turn and what constitutes action and what is binding. We discussed it for some time.


Preliminary situation-

We're four handed and Player 2 raises his button to $100. I call from the BB w/ QJ. I check call all three streets on a board that reads J-4-4-7-2 rainbow. I considered folding to his $500 river bet but when he started announcing my hand "J-T, QJ, etc" I called and he said "Kings" and flashed his hand in a manner that I would see only one card, a king. I never muck my hand until the other player has completely tabled his, and he reluctantly and slowly tabled K-T. Then he mildly berated me for my call.

Fifteen minutes later....


PF action is unsure, but Player 2 limps in and Player 1 raises, Player 2 calls.

Flop is

9-4-6 with a flush draw

Player 2 checks, Player 1 bets about $180 and Player 2 calls. The turn pairs the 4 and it is checked around.

The river is a brick and Player 2 checks to Player 1. Player 2 is obviously frustrated and has been for a while now, and Player 1 grabs a stack ($400) and starts cutting the chips into $100 stacks (not in front of him, but in motion to bet) as Player 1 is just about to finish cutting the third stack (obviously still in the motion of betting and has NOT completed his bet) Player 2 announces "Call" out of turn. Immediately after Player 2 announces call, Player 1 announces "Two-thousand" while cutting the third and fourth stack of chips.


Floor is called and rules Player 2 must pay Player 1 the $2,000 river bet. Player 1 had about $2500 when the river card fell and Player 1 had him covered. Obviously drama ensues.


I like the ruling and I like the rule, but i'm not sure how I feel about this situation. Player 2 tried to angleshoot me to a certain extent, and in the above situation Player 1 took advantage of a frustrated and out of line opponent who was most likely trying to influence Player 1's bet amount when he announced "call" out of turn. Obviously Player 1 wasn't going to bet $2,000, but I think Player 2 thought that he might get a cheaper showdown by announcing "call" out of turn.



What are your thoughts on both players, this situation, and the rule that action out of turn is binding in this case (action out of turn is binding unless the action changes before it comes to the player who acted out of turn".




-Tex

Re: A very interesting ethics situation and a Bellagio Floor ruling
 

I don't like the ruling. Player 1 is angleshooting if he expects the call to be binding.

Re: A very interesting ethics situation and a Bellagio Floor ruling
 

yea I mean he is totally angleing here but the call is correct. The player was just counting chips , he could of just as well been counting his stack to see what hes got left .

Re: A very interesting ethics situation and a Bellagio Floor ruling
 

I think both Player 1 and Player 2 were angleshooting. Because Player 2 did it first, it seems only fitting that he was hoist on his own petard.

However, I would have ruled that he had a choice of paying $400 and folding, calling the $2,000, or raising all-in. I'm not sure that my ruling could be supported by any known poker rules, but I think it is the fairest outcome given the behavior by both players.

Re: A very interesting ethics situation and a Bellagio Floor ruling
 

Its obvious Player 2 is shady. I say props to Player One for quickly regocnizing what Player 2 was trying to do and making him pay for his unethical behavior. kharma is a bitch

Re: A very interesting ethics situation and a Bellagio Floor ruling
 

So Player2 is placing chips in the "betting area".
He has $400 in his hand. He has not declared an amount. He has cut off $300 in 3 stacks.

Assume Player1 does not say anything at that moment.

Could Player2 say "two thousand" at that point and go back to his stack, or would it be considered a string raise under Bellagio rules (I don't care about the rules anywhere else)?

Re: A very interesting ethics situation and a Bellagio Floor ruling
 

Interesting....like the floor'ruling...admired #1's play

Re: A very interesting ethics situation and a Bellagio Floor ruling
 

I am a Poker dealer and I dont know what specific rules the Belligio has, but most rules are the same when there is no betting line present.

If a player is cutting chips and is in the process of making a bet, and anounces a bet. The verbal bet is binding.

If a player acts out of turn, his action must stand.

For instance if Player 2 says "raise" instead of call, then player 1 says "two thousand", Player 2 has to make the bet at least 4000

Re: A very interesting ethics situation and a Bellagio Floor ruling
 

Player #2 is an angleshooter and deserves what he got. Experienced players, with fairly big money in play, simply have got to be held to ettiquette otherwise the angleshooters will destroy the game with ongoing antics, up to and including cheating.

Re: A very interesting ethics situation and a Bellagio Floor ruling
 

[ QUOTE ]


If a player acts out of turn, his action must stand.



[/ QUOTE ]

I strongly disagree. From Robert's rules of Poker:

[ QUOTE ]
An action or verbal declaration out of turn may be ruled binding if there is no bet, call, or raise by an intervening player acting after the infraction has been committed.


[/ QUOTE ]