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-   -   PokerRoom refuses to cashout US player (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=551788)

JavaNut 11-30-2007 09:24 AM

Re: PokerRoom refuses to cashout US player
 
Well nobody really wants to do a 'Neteller' do they?

The fact is that transferring money from a site that has poker and/or sportsbetting is in the twilight zone, as the regulations that should clarify what is legal and what is not legal is nowhere near being in place.

I know that in principle only moving money to a site is illegal, but which banks, wire companies etc. are willing to risk their business on the outcome of a trial or even risk a enormous amount of money on a possible trial.

A further detail is the fact that most people think that somewhere down the line, the US market will be opened up for foreign poker sites again, who wants to be locked out of this market, because they took a silly chance trying to move a relatively small amount to a customer. Even if all 2p2'ers never played on PokerRoom or skins again, that will be a smaller loss than the potential banning from the US market due to illegal procedures during the 'prohibition'.

Of course OP should get his money, but PokerRoom has to find a way to do it which can not be, in any way whatsoever, considered illegal. As there are no precise regulations for this, I fully understand that neither PokerRoom, nor any company with whom they are dealing, are willing to take any chances at all.

It is lawless times dealing in poker and sportsbetting on the US market.

TruePoker CEO 11-30-2007 12:46 PM

Thanks for Pokerroom\'s Invitation to US players to visit TruePoker
 
Hi Lee,

You took a totally gratuitous shot at established US-facing poker companies, including by description, Truepoker, PokerStars, Full Tilt, Microgaming, Cake, Absolute, UltimateBet, among others.

Nevertheless, I truly appreciate your express invitation to your former US players to visit TruePoker. I would be more than willing to offer them an opportunity to play here and then see if we pay them cashouts before your site resolves this issue for ALL your former US players.

TruePoker CEO

Skallagrim 11-30-2007 12:59 PM

Re: Thanks for Pokerroom\'s Invitation to US players to visit TruePoker
 
Dear PokerRoom Rep.

I called your post BS for precisely one reason, I will explain it again in detail and would appreciate a specific response.

I fully understand that the UIGEA has left you, as an arguably "responsible" publicly held company, without a US processor for transfer of funds. So be it, I fully understand why you cannot wire the player his money, or do a bank transfer, or anything similar.

What you have not responded to is why you simply cannot or will not mail him a check for money that you hold that is undisputedly his. You certainly cant deny that you have the ability to issue checks. Nor can you deny that issuing him a check for his money does not violate the provisions of the UIGEA in any way. I understand that the check will not be issued by a US bank and this will slow and to a lesser extent cost the player in conversion fees when he deposits it in a US bank. But he has already indicated that he is willing to accept that.

So, if he is willing to accept that, why cant PokerRoom?

Skallagrim

Tuff_Fish 11-30-2007 06:07 PM

Re: Thanks for Pokerroom\'s Invitation to US players to visit TruePoker
 
[ QUOTE ]
why cant PokerRoom?


[/ QUOTE ]

Let me take a guess.

They don't WANT to give him his money. Then they might have to give some other folks their money. And on and on. Soon they would not have however much money they are holding from US players

Am I close?

Tuff

CardSharpCook 11-30-2007 07:52 PM

Re: Thanks for Pokerroom\'s Invitation to US players to visit TruePoker
 
[ QUOTE ]
What you have not responded to is why you simply cannot or will not mail him a check for money that you hold that is undisputedly his. You certainly cant deny that you have the ability to issue checks. Nor can you deny that issuing him a check for his money does not violate the provisions of the UIGEA in any way. I understand that the check will not be issued by a US bank and this will slow and to a lesser extent cost the player in conversion fees when he deposits it in a US bank. But he has already indicated that he is willing to accept that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. This is what bothers me as well. It seems likely that PokerRoom has at least one consultant living in the US. How do they pay that guy? Send a check in the mail. What could be hard about that?

DeadMoneyDad 12-01-2007 10:07 AM

Re: Thanks for Pokerroom\'s Invitation to US players to visit TruePoker
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What you have not responded to is why you simply cannot or will not mail him a check for money that you hold that is undisputedly his. You certainly cant deny that you have the ability to issue checks. Nor can you deny that issuing him a check for his money does not violate the provisions of the UIGEA in any way. I understand that the check will not be issued by a US bank and this will slow and to a lesser extent cost the player in conversion fees when he deposits it in a US bank. But he has already indicated that he is willing to accept that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. This is what bothers me as well. It seems likely that PokerRoom has at least one consultant living in the US. How do they pay that guy? Send a check in the mail. What could be hard about that?

[/ QUOTE ]

The logic of this is inescapable!

Even e-pass has "operations" is south FLA. If they are facilitating such a clear flagrant violation of at least the spirit of the UIGEA by providing for the transfer of funds related to "unlawful internet gambling"; how the hell are they getting paid?

How are all the US pro sponsors of various on-line sites getting paid their cuts?

If one thing is clear, even the DOJ says individual players are not subject to criminal prosecution for playing on-line poker. The poker operators seem to want to use the law to keep the funds in the un-numbered accounts for as long as possible. Even a basic understanding of on-line poker economic and simple banking economics would tell you their is tremendous reason and quite a bit on money behind this scam.



D$D

Doc T River 12-01-2007 01:40 PM

Re: Thanks for Pokerroom\'s Invitation to US players to visit TruePoker
 
I think my whole view on this can be summed up by saying that the right thing is not always the legal thing and the legal thing is not always the right thing.

Pokerroom should do the right thing which is return the money.

Doc T River 12-01-2007 02:37 PM

Re: Thanks for Pokerroom\'s Invitation to US players to visit TruePoker
 
Well, I cannot edit the above post so I have to make another post.

Another thing I find funny in all this is Mason's response. He said it bothered him since Pokerroom was part of the bonus program for non US players. Since the OP is a US player, why does it bother Mason on the basis he states?

Also, Mason seems to chatise Pokerroom for trying to comply with their view of the law, but he won't allow US players to take part in the bonus program due to legal issues.

It seems like Mason is trying to have it both ways. I am very interested in listening to Mason's views on this.

I guess I am a little upset now because I tried finding out why US players cannot take part in the 5 free books and the closest thing I can find is that Mason's lawyer advised him not to affiliate with any poker site that allows US players to play.

Mason Malmuth 12-01-2007 03:10 PM

Re: Thanks for Pokerroom\'s Invitation to US players to visit TruePoker
 
[ QUOTE ]
I guess I am a little upset now because I tried finding out why US players cannot take part in the 5 free books and the closest thing I can find is that Mason's lawyer advised him not to affiliate with any poker site that allows US players to play.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have it exactly right. If and when we can open things up to everyone we will certainly do so.

Also, we went to make sure that all the Internet poker rooms that take part in our Bonus Program are treating all our players well. Pokerroom has assured me they are working on the problem and hopefully it will be resolved soon.

Best wishes,
Mason

Doc T River 12-01-2007 04:06 PM

Re: PokerRoom refuses to cashout US player
 
[ QUOTE ]
Hi,

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. I also apologise for the responses that you have received so far.

It is very difficult for us to process any financial transactions to residents of the USA since the UIGEA was passed. This said there must be some way for us to get your money back to you.

As a first step I suggest that you log in to PokerRoom.com and then send a private message to the moderator in the Pokah forum. That way we will have confirmation of all your details and can start figuring out a way to get your money back to you. We can then chase this up from PokerRoom central and work with you to find a way to get your remaining funds back to you.

We will also contact the support teams to figure out a better way to handle these isolated issues. In our defense I should point out that our US players were given fair warning and a number of options to make cash outs after we had taken the decision to close to the US.

The realisation you reached that we have no interest is unfortunate. PokerRoom will always value its US players and we have every intention to open to the USA again as soon as the current prohibition is reversed. Hopefully we can resolve this and let you rekindle your awesome surprise in time for Christmas.

Regards
Lee

PokerRoom.com Team

[/ QUOTE ]

Before making my post directed to Mason, I went back and skimmed through the posts and paid closer attention to the posts from Pokerroom. When I did this, something really jumped out at me from the post quoted above.

Notice how Pokerroom says, "it is very difficult for us to process any financial transactions to residents of the USA...." Note what he did not say. He did not say it was impossible, just difficult.

If it is not impossible, why has it not been done? If it is not impossible, why did the later responses make it seem like it was?

Doc T River 12-01-2007 04:09 PM

Re: Thanks for Pokerroom\'s Invitation to US players to visit TruePoker
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I guess I am a little upset now because I tried finding out why US players cannot take part in the 5 free books and the closest thing I can find is that Mason's lawyer advised him not to affiliate with any poker site that allows US players to play.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have it exactly right. If and when we can open things up to everyone we will certainly do so.

Also, we went to make sure that all the Internet poker rooms that take part in our Bonus Program are treating all our players well. Pokerroom has assured me they are working on the problem and hopefully it will be resolved soon.

Best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the response and I hope I did not anger you. When you do good, I am the type who will let you know. When I think you have done bad, I am the type who is blunt.

TruePoker CEO 12-01-2007 05:45 PM

Re: TruePoker wants US poker players business and is willing to help ...
 
FreeBeer,

As I understand it, the pm boxes will all be moved, empty, with the software change.

So you understand, I let it fill up because I don't check it frequently enough. If I could get an email generated to me whenever there is a message, I could use the service.

Otherwise, you can always email me at management@truepoker.com

TruePoker CEO

dlk9s 12-02-2007 01:21 AM

Re: Excuse me, son, but \"legitimate\" poker operators pay US cashouts
 
[ QUOTE ]
I would like to respond to the post from the TruePoker CEO and the accusations that I have been supplying BS. I know that any attempts to transfer funds to the United States from PokerRoom are now routinely blocked by the US banking system. I know that all of the payment service providers that used to work with us to process transactions in US dollars to the United States no longer provide those services.

I'm not sure how I exhibited either ignorance or arrogance. If players in the US have been insulted by my remarks, the insult was not intended.

It is not just a coincidence that all online poker sites that are owned and operated by listed companies no longer accept US players. The reason is the prohibition on online gaming set out in the UIGEA.

I leave 2+2's members to decide for themselves what to make of the TruePoker CEO's patronising attempts to capitalise on this situation. I also invite the 2+2 members to visit both TruePoker and PokerRoom to decide which is the deadbeat site for themselves.

I joined this conversation to work with the original poster to resolve this situation. It has been very instructive for me to do this and I am confident we will find a way to meet his needs.

Regards
Lee

PokerRoom.com

[/ QUOTE ]
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/9...acepalmel4.jpg

Doc T River 12-02-2007 01:46 AM

Re: Excuse me, son, but \"legitimate\" poker operators pay US cashouts
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would like to respond to the post from the TruePoker CEO and the accusations that I have been supplying BS. I know that any attempts to transfer funds to the United States from PokerRoom are now routinely blocked by the US banking system. I know that all of the payment service providers that used to work with us to process transactions in US dollars to the United States no longer provide those services.

I'm not sure how I exhibited either ignorance or arrogance. If players in the US have been insulted by my remarks, the insult was not intended.

It is not just a coincidence that all online poker sites that are owned and operated by listed companies no longer accept US players. The reason is the prohibition on online gaming set out in the UIGEA.

I leave 2+2's members to decide for themselves what to make of the TruePoker CEO's patronising attempts to capitalise on this situation. I also invite the 2+2 members to visit both TruePoker and PokerRoom to decide which is the deadbeat site for themselves.

I joined this conversation to work with the original poster to resolve this situation. It has been very instructive for me to do this and I am confident we will find a way to meet his needs.

Regards
Lee

PokerRoom.com

[/ QUOTE ]
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/9...acepalmel4.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

See, this is not what he (pokerroom) said in his first post. Initially he said that it was difficult to accomplish and in this one, he is basically saying it is impossible.

DMoogle 12-02-2007 01:52 AM

Re: TruePoker wants US poker players business and is willing to help .
 
[ QUOTE ]
FreeBeer,

As I understand it, the pm boxes will all be moved, empty, with the software change.

So you understand, I let it fill up because I don't check it frequently enough. If I could get an email generated to me whenever there is a message, I could use the service.

Otherwise, you can always email me at management@truepoker.com

TruePoker CEO

[/ QUOTE ]
To receive an e-mail notification when you receive a PM, at the top of the forum page, go to "My Home", near the bottom right click "Edit" next to "Subscribe / Unsubscribe from receiving forum posts by email, change message notifications, etc.", select "Yes" for the first option "Do you want email notifications when you receive private messages?", then click Submit. You will then be notified whenever you receive a PM.


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