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-   -   PokerRoom refuses to cashout US player (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=551788)

CardSharpCook 11-21-2007 09:22 PM

PokerRoom refuses to cashout US player
 
On a whim, I open up PokerRoom last night and discover, to my surprise, that I still have money on that site. I quickly learn that PokerRoom is now closed to US players. So I go to cash out. I am unable. Apparently I am not allowed even to transfer money on pokerroom. Just had another conversation with their support. His points:

1. US players had a grace period
2. If you can find a way for us to send you your money, please let us know.
3. PokerRoom is different because it is a publicly traded company, Pokerstars is privately traded, and therefore governed by different rules (???)
4. You can look at your money every day online. We're not stealing it.

He ended up hanging up on me after refusing to transfer me to a superior.


I also got this email response:
Hi Mr. Taylor,

Thank you for contacting PokerRoom.com support.

Thank you for your e-mail regarding your cash-out query.

You will be pleased to know that I have read and understood the problem that you are having.
In fact I think that I would be just as frustrated if I were you.
The problem is that we are prohibited to get the money to you and when the US players were being notified of the new law that is in place.
You did have a period to collect your money.

Thank you in advance for your patience.

Should you have any further queries, please contact us again.

Regards,
Luthando

PokerRoom.com Support Team


I also spoke with the support in chatbox person who said: "Card, no US banks will accept money from online gaming sites... Until we find one that does...."

A previous conversation with a support personnel said, "we're looking for another way to get US players their money." However they all seem to reiterate the point that, "there was a grace period, you had your chance." but stop short of saying, "so we're keeping your money."

My questions:

Is it legal for them to send me my money?
What should I do now?

Adebisi 11-21-2007 10:26 PM

Re: PokerRoom refuses to cashout US player
 
Try to get them send you a check. I think paper checks are specifically exemted from the UIGEA. Maybe find the specific language in the statute that says it doesn't restrict paper checks, and cite it to them in e-mail.

Or even better, tell them to put some hundreds in an envelope and mail it to you.

DeadMoneyDad 11-22-2007 10:19 AM

Re: PokerRoom refuses to cashout US player
 
[ QUOTE ]
My questions:

Is it legal for them to send me my money?

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems their opinion that they are unaware of "legal" method of withdraw. The paper checks are exempt is a myth. The first US bank in the system is required to know its "customers", to the poin that is they think "your" money is from an illegal source, US banking laws inculding the UIGEA, require that bank to find a way and justification for atempting to "over" block as much as possible.

[ QUOTE ]
What should I do now?

[/ QUOTE ]

Given that it is seemingly an amount you forgot about some suggestions like going there to get your money seem impractical.

Realistically your best option seems to be along the lines attpemting to find some sort of private player to player transfer.




D$D

ericicecream 11-23-2007 03:46 AM

Re: PokerRoom refuses to cashout US player
 
I see your point. I see their point. Realistically, it was your responsibility to cash out the money before the grace period.

I think you just wait a year or so and hope they open back up to u.s. customers.

I'm sure it's not a very large amount of money to you since you didn't miss it for over a year.

Skallagrim 11-23-2007 11:26 AM

Re: PokerRoom refuses to cashout US player
 
There is nothing in the UIGEA that makes transfers from a gambling site to a US person illegal. They at least have not claimed otherwise.

The problem is they have no US bank or other system to send you your money, and they are not going to create one just for you.

They truly could send you a check, drawn on their bank in whatever foreign country. If checks are a normal PR method, this should not be a hassle, though there is probably a fee and a minimum amount (which, given your description, you probably dont meet). But if they send checks to their European players, they could send one to you too.

Skallagrim

Nsight7 11-23-2007 01:42 PM

Re: PokerRoom refuses to cashout US player
 
Because I am curious, how much did you have left on there such that you didn't notice it for a year+, if you don't mind of course?

xxThe_Lebowskixx 11-23-2007 04:35 PM

Re: PokerRoom refuses to cashout US player
 
their stance is understandable. you must leave the country to get your money back. they gave you a certain amount of time to withdraw, right?

xxThe_Lebowskixx 11-23-2007 04:48 PM

Re: PokerRoom refuses to cashout US player
 
if they send him money, then why not let all americans who still have money in their account to continue playing as they are not accepting money from the USA? the company obviously hasnt taken that stance. there stance is no transactions to or from the usa. he had a grace period to withdraw and didnt, now he needs a foreign addy as far as i can tell.

CardSharpCook 11-23-2007 05:41 PM

Re: PokerRoom refuses to cashout US player
 
The amount is $3352. Long story short, I used to be a MTT player, and would keep money on all sites just in case. PokerRoom offered a series of $1000 tourneys which were somewhat soft, esp considering the structure. Most of these accounts were cashed out long ago, and I assumed the PokerRoom account was as well. On a whim, I checked my pokerRoom account the other day.

lebowski,
I have to think you can see the difference btwn allowing a player to close his account by sending him a final cashout and simply cutting off in future deposits.

To your other question, moving to another country would not allow me to get my money back either as the account is registered and created in the US.

Eric,
Given that no US law prevents them from a) sending me a check b) allowing me to play, it is hard for me to imagine them ever allowing me to access my money.

D$D,
PokerRoom has told me that their rules prohibit me from transferring money as well.

All,
What scares/annoys/baffles me the most is that 4 different customer service people told me, "we're currently looking for a way to get US players their money." Given that all sites operating in the US have found such a method, it seems to me they are not looking very had at all. Also, this search has currently lasted 13 months. No, I can't think they are trying much at all. It is my belief that they have a rather significant amount of US money trapped in their system which they are hoping is forgiven or forgotten. That is, given that there is not much I can do at this point, that it is only $3k, that no one really seems to care, I will likely choose to wait, as I have no other apparent option. So if they open their doors to US players 5 years down the road, will I really remember?

Skall,
PokerRoom does offer a cashout by check option for their European clients. My bank, Bank of America, honors checks from pokerstars and Absolute, so I have to imagine they'd honor a check from PokerRoom. PokerRoom refuses to send, claiming to be bound by US law.

TheEngineer 11-23-2007 06:05 PM

Re: PokerRoom refuses to cashout US player
 
I'd try what xxThe_Lebowskixx is hinting at. I was successful at another site. I'll PM you if you want.

xxThe_Lebowskixx 11-23-2007 06:35 PM

Re: PokerRoom refuses to cashout US player
 
"lebowski,
I have to think you can see the difference btwn allowing a player to close his account by sending him a final cashout and simply cutting off in future deposits.

To your other question, moving to another country would not allow me to get my money back either as the account is registered and created in the US."

have they confirmed this? i would be very surprised if this were true.

Skallagrim 11-23-2007 06:54 PM

Re: PokerRoom refuses to cashout US player
 
Thet are being A--holes if they refuse to send you a check. Ask them to send it just in precisely the same manner they send out checks to europeans, only to your US address. If they refuse to do this, tell them you will take legal action and report them to whatever regulates them. It is your money. YOU CAN BE SURE - THERE IS NO LAW BEING BROKEN BY THEM SENDING YOU A CHECK FOR YOUR MONEY. They already broke the law (if poker is against the law - see discussion elsewhere) when they accepted your US money for "gambling" purposes after 10/13/06. And when they had their grace period, they were just as much in violation of any law as they would be now. The law is an excuse. What if they owed you money because at one point you had done some work for them? Legally, its exactly the same.

But sometimes it is better to be creative than to openly fight. PM TheEngineer, he always has good advice.

Skallagrim

jbrennen 11-23-2007 07:54 PM

Re: PokerRoom refuses to cashout US player
 
[ QUOTE ]
2. If you can find a way for us to send you your money, please let us know.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems ludicrous to me. The UIGEA targets transfers TO gambling businesses, not transfers FROM gambling businesses.

I don't know of any regulation or law which prohibits somebody from returning your own money to you.

They should be able to legally send you a check drawn on any institution anywhere and you should be able to legally cash it. (At least as far as the US Federal government is concerned.)

TruePoker CEO 11-23-2007 08:18 PM

TruePoker wants US poker players business and is willing to help ...
 
I would agree that this sounds ridiculous on the part of the poker site.

I would go further, as we would certainly like to GET business from US players who are in this situation with poker sites which refuse to cash someone out just because they are from the US.

I want to offer what assistance we can to Card or anyone else who has frozen balances at sites which simply refuse to pay US players.

So, if anyone wants to contact Pokerroom or other sites with this policy, I am willing to offer those players BOTH a First Time Deposit bonus and the ability to get a cashout .... TruePoker will accept a transfer of funds from PokerRoom or other US-phobic site, via wire or other means acceptable to that site and credit the player with a TruePoker account for your transferred balance. We will also be glad to give such players a First Time Deposit bonus.

We have no issue cashing out US players' withdrawals and would welcome their business.

We can certainly allow US players to cash out.

Card, feel free to suggest to PokerRoom that we are willing to accept a transfer offshore on your behalf. (If they want toconfirm this TruePoker policy, they can email management@TruePoker.com).

Galron 11-24-2007 09:11 PM

Re: PokerRoom refuses to cashout US player
 
I think that you should try to contact PokerRoom again. I tried to cashout earlier this year and their check bounced due to bank issues at their end. They noted that they will no longer issue checks to US customers, but that you can setup an online Wirecard account and that they will transfer your funds to the Wirecard account. I have always enjoyed your posts so I hope this leads to giving a little back to you. Let us know how it works out.

CardSharpCook 11-25-2007 11:53 AM

Re: PokerRoom refuses to cashout US player
 
Thanks, Galron. UNfortunately, PokerRoom mentioned this to me as the option no longer available to US players. You know, through their Indian/British accents, I thought they were saying "wildcard".

This is my most recent communique:

Hi there,

Thank you for your recent <contact> regarding your cashout. I apologise for the delay in responding to you.

We are experiencing unforeseen difficulties surrounding cashing out to US registered players. We are currently waiting for more information from our Payments department, which we will pass on to you once it is available to us.

We apologise for this lack of information, and assure you that we are working hard to find a suitable solution for you.

Should you have any further queries, please contact us again.

Regards,
Jeftin

PokerRoom.com Support Team


On November 24, 2007 at 3:37 AM,

>Please just send me a check for the balance in my account. I assure you, my bank will cash it. Even if the bank doesn't cash it, I'm in no worse spot than I am in now. You are not breaking any laws by sending me a check. If you broke any US law, you broke it when you accepted a placed bet.. You are not breaking it by sending me money. It's just the same as if I did some work for you. This is money owed to me. Write a check to me the same way you'd write a check to anyone else. There is nothing illegal about that.
>
>Thank you,
>Brendan

CardSharpCook 11-25-2007 11:54 AM

Re: PokerRoom refuses to cashout US player
 
You know, I still haven't dealt with the same person twice.

mayday4379 11-25-2007 02:59 PM

Re: PokerRoom refuses to cashout US player
 
ummmm....chip dump it to a non-us player

eastern motors 11-25-2007 08:46 PM

Re: PokerRoom refuses to cashout US player
 
Do you have any friends that live in Canada/EU? Maybe you should move in with them for a couple days.

Rampage_Jackson 11-25-2007 09:09 PM

Re: PokerRoom refuses to cashout US player
 
Really they should have cashed out your money automatically in form of a check.

B00T 11-25-2007 11:21 PM

Re: PokerRoom refuses to cashout US player
 
Can you ask them to just transfer your balance to someone non-US? Surely some euro on 2+2 guy you know or a mod on here has a pokerroom acct and can help you out.

I understand your gripe is that it shouldn't come to this. You just want a check, but if they can do this for you it might be your best bet.

PokerRoom.com 11-26-2007 12:45 PM

Re: PokerRoom refuses to cashout US player
 
Hi,

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. I also apologise for the responses that you have received so far.

It is very difficult for us to process any financial transactions to residents of the USA since the UIGEA was passed. This said there must be some way for us to get your money back to you.

As a first step I suggest that you log in to PokerRoom.com and then send a private message to the moderator in the Pokah forum. That way we will have confirmation of all your details and can start figuring out a way to get your money back to you. We can then chase this up from PokerRoom central and work with you to find a way to get your remaining funds back to you.

We will also contact the support teams to figure out a better way to handle these isolated issues. In our defense I should point out that our US players were given fair warning and a number of options to make cash outs after we had taken the decision to close to the US.

The realisation you reached that we have no interest is unfortunate. PokerRoom will always value its US players and we have every intention to open to the USA again as soon as the current prohibition is reversed. Hopefully we can resolve this and let you rekindle your awesome surprise in time for Christmas.

Regards
Lee

PokerRoom.com Team

CardSharpCook 11-26-2007 01:03 PM

Re: PokerRoom refuses to cashout US player
 
[ QUOTE ]
ummmm....chip dump it to a non-us player

[/ QUOTE ]
Not allowed to sit at a table with real money

[ QUOTE ]
Do you have any friends that live in Canada/EU? Maybe you should move in with them for a couple days.

[/ QUOTE ]

The account, being created in the US, will always be treated as such. Even moving permenently to Canada wouldn't allow me to play with this account (at least, this is my understanding).

[ QUOTE ]
Can you ask them to just transfer your balance to someone non-US?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have asked if they could do this. They said no.

[ QUOTE ]
As a first step I suggest that you log in to PokerRoom.com and then send a private message to the moderator in the Pokah forum. That way we will have confirmation of all your details and can start figuring out a way to get your money back to you. We can then chase this up from PokerRoom central and work with you to find a way to get your remaining funds back to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Man, here I go feeling hopeful again. About to try this. I tell you all how it goes.


MODERATOR: It'd be nice if we could confirm that the above poster does indeed represent pokerroom.com.

Mr Sarcastic 11-27-2007 07:36 PM

Re: PokerRoom refuses to cashout US player
 
"MODERATOR: It'd be nice if we could confirm that the above poster does indeed represent pokerroom.com."

"Now, who would claim that he was one, if he were not"

Malone (Sean Connery) to Elliot Ness
from The Untouchables

Seriously, pm the guy and get him to cut to the chase. ...

brendanb438 11-27-2007 10:26 PM

Re: PokerRoom refuses to cashout US player
 
Seeing that old dude is member #72 on this site I really doubt it is someone acting like they rep pokerroom.com. I mean really check his posts over the years.

My question to this whole family of sites that all started to go to hell well before the US issues with Futurebet payment processors is why in the hell can any other site still get their players in the US cashouts? To say you have no way to do it is ludacris. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Really though if all the shady non-futurebet sportsbooks can get us our money, if Bodog can ship us our money from made up company via check, or by Western Union via random 3rd world country why can't you guys? My #1 guess is that since you no longer make money from US players than why try to jump through any hoops to get us our money back.

Too bad Calvin Ayres doesn't buyout your site. For all the hate people show to him here this man is amazing for US players.

This man tells the US gov to go and fccuk itself multiple times. Loses his domain to a US court ruling and everyone thinks he is gonna pay millions to get it back. Nope the US courts can also go and fccuk themselves, he just makes a new domain. This is all after the fact that he was buying US players accounts from multiple sportsbooks who quit doing biz in the US including BetWWTS where are money was frozen for 8 weeks. He lets us transfer it to Bodog with a 10% bonus on top and ZERO playthrough.

Man is a god in this industry.

-Brendan

FreeBeer 11-28-2007 01:22 AM

Re: TruePoker wants US poker players business and is willing to help ...
 
TruePokerCEO:

Please empty your PM box.

*TT* 11-28-2007 05:25 PM

Re: PokerRoom refuses to cashout US player
 
[ QUOTE ]
MODERATOR: It'd be nice if we could confirm that the above poster does indeed represent pokerroom.com.

[/ QUOTE ]

not the moderator of this forum, but I can confirm he is legit.

MiltonFriedman 11-28-2007 08:11 PM

Re: PokerRoom refuses to cashout US player
 
Say this for BoDog: When the US sh*t hit the fan for Calvin a couple of years ago around the WSOP, they stepped up and made whole those folks who were collaterally damaged ....... No fuss, No questions; they just paid their damages/refunds AND STILL threw a nice party at the Wynn.

Cashouts ARE difficult for US players sometimes, but it IS possible AND a site's responsibility.

CardSharpCook 11-29-2007 04:38 AM

Re: PokerRoom refuses to cashout US player
 
Day 10,

Still no response to my PM to the mod on the "pokah" forum. I'm going to take a risk and let you all in on a little secret: I was able to transfer $500 to a fellow 2p2er for funds on Stars. If they don't stop me from doing this, I can do this once a month. I CAN HAVE MY MONEY OUT BY JUNE!!!!!! WOOOOOHOOOOOO!!!! (less 3% for the guy helping me out, of course)

DeadMoneyDad 11-29-2007 10:41 AM

Re: PokerRoom refuses to cashout US player
 
[ QUOTE ]
Day 10,

Still no response to my PM to the mod on the "pokah" forum. I'm going to take a risk and let you all in on a little secret: I was able to transfer $500 to a fellow 2p2er for funds on Stars. If they don't stop me from doing this, I can do this once a month. I CAN HAVE MY MONEY OUT BY JUNE!!!!!! WOOOOOHOOOOOO!!!! (less 3% for the guy helping me out, of course)

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep track of your "costs" of doing business, if you itemize you should in theory be able to deduct the expenses.


D$D

PokerRoom.com 11-29-2007 11:45 AM

Re: PokerRoom refuses to cashout US player
 
Hi,

For legitimate operators that respect US law and by extension the UIGEA there is no clear legal way to administer funds transfers in US dollars to former players. If there were, all of our cash out options would still be available to our former US players.

The fact facing PokerRoom is that even though we chose to respect the UIGEA and closed real money operations to players in the USA any attempts now to move funds to the USA from PokerRoom are now blocked. A blacklist is in effect against all online gaming companies. As part of a publicly traded company we at PokerRoom are of course bound to respect the law presently in effect in all countries. The legal situation in effect in the United States, though regrettable, is a reality that we respect.

We cannot facilitate transactions to the USA legally using any of the options we have available on the PokerRoom site. Hence, one year after we closed operations to real money players from the USA, we have very limited options available to us in helping former players from the USA to get back any funds that remain on their PokerRoom accounts.

I am personally working with the poster to try and resolve the issue he has with trapped funds.

Best Regards
Lee

PokerRoom.com

Skallagrim 11-29-2007 12:26 PM

Re: PokerRoom refuses to cashout US player
 
The above post by Pokerroom contains a lot of BS. I used to play there and liked the site, I never will again.

Any suggestion that they would be breaking a law by sending an american money in their account is completely wrong as far as legality (as opposed to practicality or expense) is concerned.

They may not be able to get a US processor for funds, true.

But look at it this way: I have friends in Denmark. Sometimes we do business for each other. When we owe each other money we write each other checks drawn on our home accounts. I take the check to my US bank and deposit it. It takes forever to clear and there is a currency exchange loss, but it clears.

There is absolutely no legal reason Pokerroom could not do the same. None. Zero.

Skallagrim

CardSharpCook 11-29-2007 02:15 PM

Re: PokerRoom refuses to cashout US player
 
Skall, I agree with you completely. Like many in this forum, I've done my best to keep current with legality issues with our game (and all online "gambling"). I do not understand what law POkerRoom feels they would be breaking. UIGEA does not touch on transfers FROM a poker site. However, I finally got a PM response from the PokerRoom official that posts here, and for the first time, I feel that PokerRoom MIGHT actually be trying to get me my money back. I will keep you all informed.

TruePoker CEO 11-29-2007 03:09 PM

Excuse me, son, but \"legitimate\" poker operators pay US cashouts
 
Hi, Lee,

You wrote : "For legitimate operators that respect US law and by extension the UIGEA there is no clear legal way to administer funds transfers in US dollars to former players."

That is complete and utter nonsense. Your ignorance is exceeded only by your arrogance in insulting US players and poker companys that serve them.

That short-term charade of a "missed" window of opportunity for US players to get their money back gives lie to your assertion that somehow sending a cashout to a poker player violates US law. If you were permitted to do it then, post-UIGEA, you could do so now.

Only a deadbeat "operator" does not pay players it owes money to. Send the man his money, you should be ashamed of yourself.

You write: "We have very limited options available to us in helping former players from the USA to get back any funds that remain on their PokerRoom accounts."

Write him a check, send him a wire transfer, send him a Western Union or whatever for his cashout. If you need help in figuring out how to do it, ask Western Union or any Bank that does US dollar transactions.

Best regards,

TruePoker CEO

whangarei 11-29-2007 03:20 PM

Re: Excuse me, son, but \"legitimate\" poker operators pay US cashouts
 
[ QUOTE ]
That short-term charade of a "missed" window of opportunity for US players to get their money back gives lie to your assertion that somehow sending a cashout to a poker player violates US law. If you were permitted to do it then, post-UIGEA, you could do so now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent point.

FreeBeer 11-29-2007 03:26 PM

Re: Excuse me, son, but \"legitimate\" poker operators pay US cashouts
 
This discussion interests me greatly, as I have >$5000 on Paradise Poker and they refuse to pay me, claiming they have method of paying a US player. They also claim they are working on getting me paid, but as this has gone on for months, and ALL correspondence has been initiated by me, well, I am discouraged to say the least.

I have offered a transfer to a non-US player. I have offered Western Union. I have offered to go to their offices in person and pick up cash or a cashier's check. All refused.

TruePoker CEO says I am being lied to. PokerRoom guy says this normal operating procedure. I am confused.

I understand Paradise might be afraid to make a US payment because of their affiliation with a sportsbook. But can they be serious about the danger of paying me by cashier's check in their own office?

I certainly feel cheated at this point. If anyone has any suggestions or strategy for me getting paid, I am all ears (and eyes).

xxThe_Lebowskixx 11-30-2007 02:18 AM

Re: Excuse me, son, but \"legitimate\" poker operators pay US cashouts
 
you guys are being unfair with PokerRoom. Look, from their perspective why not just allow Americans with money in their accounts to continue playing if its OK to send Americans funds but not to receive them? That would make them money, but they have clearly taken a different stance. Party has the same stance. They gave everyone a grace period.

However, if the site refused to reopen your account after you relocated, than that would be unfair and a big problem.

Blame the US government, not the site. They are just trying to walk the line.

PokerRoom.com 11-30-2007 05:51 AM

Re: Excuse me, son, but \"legitimate\" poker operators pay US cashouts
 
I would like to respond to the post from the TruePoker CEO and the accusations that I have been supplying BS. I know that any attempts to transfer funds to the United States from PokerRoom are now routinely blocked by the US banking system. I know that all of the payment service providers that used to work with us to process transactions in US dollars to the United States no longer provide those services.

I'm not sure how I exhibited either ignorance or arrogance. If players in the US have been insulted by my remarks, the insult was not intended.

It is not just a coincidence that all online poker sites that are owned and operated by listed companies no longer accept US players. The reason is the prohibition on online gaming set out in the UIGEA.

I leave 2+2's members to decide for themselves what to make of the TruePoker CEO's patronising attempts to capitalise on this situation. I also invite the 2+2 members to visit both TruePoker and PokerRoom to decide which is the deadbeat site for themselves.

I joined this conversation to work with the original poster to resolve this situation. It has been very instructive for me to do this and I am confident we will find a way to meet his needs.

Regards
Lee

PokerRoom.com

Mason Malmuth 11-30-2007 06:17 AM

Re: Excuse me, son, but \"legitimate\" poker operators pay US cashouts
 
Hi Lee:

I'm a little disturbed about this since pokerroom.com is part of our Bonus Program (for non-US players).

When you write:

[ QUOTE ]
I leave 2+2's members to decide for themselves what to make of the TruePoker CEO's patronising attempts to capitalise on this situation. I also invite the 2+2 members to visit both TruePoker and PokerRoom to decide which is the deadbeat site for themselves.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how that helps to solve the problem of our poster getting his money back which is really the important issue here.

So perhaps you should work a little harder on figuring how to solve the real problem. Once that is done, then you can, in my opinion, address any issues you may have with the TruePoker CEO.

Best wishes,
Mason

Doc T River 11-30-2007 09:02 AM

Re: PokerRoom refuses to cashout US player
 
When I read the responses from the Pokerroom rep, I thought I was reading a response from one of our members of Congress.

I really loved his use of the term legitimate. I guess he is saying that if you are a US player and still able to transfer money to an online site, then you are dealing with an illegitimate company.

His posts strike me as a little on the arrogant side.


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