15/30 deep bluff
 

villain (BB) is total random. Samh is MP and CO is some fishy player, which was why I called with the crappy hand.

Full Tilt Poker, $15/$30 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

CO: $6,120
BTN: $6,102
Hero (SB): $6,483
BB: $7,201
UTG: $6,000
MP: $6,539

Pre-Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
UTG folds, <font color="red">MP raises to $105</font>, CO calls $105, BTN folds, Hero calls $90, BB calls $75

Flop: ($420) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $353</font>, BB calls $353, 2 folds

Turn: ($1,126) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">BB bets $600</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $2,200</font>, BB calls $1,600

River: ($5,526) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $3,825 and is All-In</font>

Re: 15/30 deep bluff
 

I'd like it a lot better if the river was like a 7.

Re: 15/30 deep bluff
 

this is a bad card to bluff on imo
if he calls the turn, i'd imagine hes calling the river too unless he was also on a flush draw.

Re: 15/30 deep bluff
 

I don't like it, especially after he calls your check-raise on the turn and the harmless river 3 (thinking that no one has quads haha).

The range of hands you can have is the combo flush + straight draws. There's a good chance you might have JJ and AJ. A3 and 33 are less likely because of the river 3. The only hand that makes sense is 5s4s.

FWIW, if I was villain and I have the 5s in my hand, I would call majority of the time. And as always, if I call and lose, it's a cooler using the "he's so aggressive" theorem obv.

But then again, villain's head might asplodes and think "omg, lots of moneys out there. he can't be bluffing and I can't lose 200bbs with one measly pair. omg omg. ugh, sick fold."

Re: 15/30 deep bluff
 

terrible card to cbet bluff the river on IMO; for the reasons posted already..

Re: 15/30 deep bluff
 

AJ and A2 and 33 were the only things you were legit representing and now those hands mostly suck or are near impossible to have

Re: 15/30 deep bluff
 

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AJ and A2 and 33 were the only things you were legit representing and now those hands mostly suck or are near impossible to have

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OK, but look at his range. Mostly missed draws and weak Ax hands right? A lot of villains would snap call here if they had AK, but have their stomach turn if they had A8.

And why is he betting just 600 on the turn? Probably because his hand sucks and he doesn't wanna make a big pot, or he has a draw and doesn't wanna be checkraised too big.

Re: 15/30 deep bluff
 

i like your donk lead here, opponents are likely to give you credit for a two-pairish hand or a big draw (54s, JTs, QJs, J9s, QTs etc) leading into a pf raiser and two callers from OOP. BB calls with a pf raiser and another caller yet to act, an action that seemingly narrows his range down to 33, or one of the big draws I listed above. He probably woldn't flat call your bet with any two pair hands.

BB's weak stab when checked to on turn really suggests a suited jack or a marginal Ax hand i think. your c/r is nice and standard, reps a hand big enough to risk him checking behind, something like 54s, 33, maybe AJ.

Obviously by the river his calling range is about two hands, 54s and 33 for a total of two combinations. His suited jacks and Ax hands comprise a much bigger part of his range, which, coupled with his passive line, makes me think you will pick up this pot often enough. Although your pushing range is really polarized, his calling range is so small i think it's a decent spot to put your money in with 8 high.

Re: 15/30 deep bluff
 

ok i dont know anything about the villain but i'm really snap calling K high here. i hate it when ppl say that when a bluff hand is posted but i'm legit, i really mean it, etc etc etc. this bluff sucks. sorry man.

Re: 15/30 deep bluff
 

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AJ and A2 and 33 were the only things you were legit representing and now those hands mostly suck or are near impossible to have

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OK, but look at his range. Mostly missed draws and weak Ax hands right? A lot of villains would snap call here if they had AK, but have their stomach turn if they had A8.

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He probably loves the river if he has A8o, now he chops with some aces. Also, he could be betting 600 on the turn just because he doesn't bet 'standard' amounts. Not a very good piece of info to go on unless its a bet size tell that you have determined from his previous play.

Re: 15/30 deep bluff
 

god i hate this, i dont' think i could hat it more

Re: 15/30 deep bluff
 

I don't really like the turn play, seems to set it up really awkward for you if he decides to push, putting you in a near breakeven calling situation. I think turn should be a bet, but since you check i would probably call his small bet and often shove over a larger bet. Shoving over his small bet can't be too bad either.

Re: 15/30 deep bluff
 

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ok i dont know anything about the villain but i'm really snap calling K high here. i hate it when ppl say that when a bluff hand is posted but i'm legit, i really mean it, etc etc etc. this bluff sucks. sorry man.

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how did you get to the river with K high? KTs? you think he's calling with Jxs and Ax?

edit: i will admit that BB's willingness to cold call your 3/4 psb in such [censored] relative postition makes me think he's slowplaying, but his turn play is so bad if we have the sort of hand we actually have that I want to give him credit enough to just be straightforwardly playing a big draw. And by the river, if he's got the nuts or 54s then cool. you tried.

Re: 15/30 deep bluff
 

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god i hate this, i dont' think i could hat it more

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Re: 15/30 deep bluff
 

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ok i dont know anything about the villain but i'm really snap calling K high here.

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sn plz

Re: 15/30 deep bluff
 

Agreed, dislike the line. If gonna bluff it I would have check raised the flop and lead pot bet on turn. As played I would have check called the turn. As said above, the 3 is a terrible river bluff card.

He has called off half his stack effectively so he is not folding the river...NB: I don't see him having a flush draw here or even a rag Ace...I think he thinks he is trapping flop and leading turn to protect against the draws. I'm guessing he flopped a set, tho if he is a total donk station I'm guessing he has AT - in which case he is caling river with both possiblities.

The key to the hand imo is the c/r was a big mistake, compounded by the bad river bluff card.

Re: 15/30 deep bluff
 

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ok i dont know anything about the villain but i'm really snap calling K high here.

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sn plz

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just look for the player with 95% went to showdown.

Re: 15/30 deep bluff
 

I actually think he is kinda weak on the turn. I'd say there is a decent chance he has a high flush draw/gutterball combo.

Re: 15/30 deep bluff
 

If you think he has a missed combo draw then would if be smart to check call the river as you have the best possible missed fl. draw? Hoping villain recognises his only chance to win is to bet. If he checks back then u make no money, if has nothing then he is not calling you AI anyway. How about check call AI to maximise value?

Would be a hilarious line to take and a brilliant one if your read was spot on! Type in what you think he has before you call to justify it and minimise any flaming afterwards lol. A 'don't mess with me' check calldown FTW ;-)

In terms of playing the hand again though the check raise flop, lead turn is a more believeable play imo. See the '25/50 v traheho standard no?' thread. It is a very similar hand in terms of lines to take and believability... even though in that case the hero has a big hand - thus emphasising that the check rasie flop lead turn is a stronger looking play.

Re: 15/30 deep bluff
 

wow i don't like this hand. preflop just jack it or fold. flop's ok but with that many opponents you're likely to run into an ace. i much prefer reraise preflop bet flop. turn checkraise no strong feelings as it is so opponent-dependent (or here game-dependent since you don't know your opponents).

on the river i don't like the bluff but think it's only marginal and not bad. if your opponents are on the tighter side postflop it's pretty close.

duck what do you think his success rate will be against an average player?

Re: 15/30 deep bluff
 

Your image at the table seemed to be pretty poor at the time, with you getting caught bluffing medium/big a few times and generally racing around the table, so I hated the play. As it turned out, this guy was a bit of a postflop calling station too, (you may not have known yet), but cmon, king, you can't try to force over EVERY pot. Your hand plays SO much better RR'd pre than doing this at the deep tables, and your flop play looks exactly like what it is. methinks you were tilting more than a bit at the time.

Re: 15/30 deep bluff
 

id much rather bet turn bet river than do this. I cant think of any legitimate hand you would lead flop into 4 players then checkraise someone you have no history with on an AJ23 flush draw board. if you had like top and bottom on the flop, i really really really doubt this deep you ever c/r the turn. I think your bluff is much more hoping that he isnt strong enough to call rather than repping anything yourself and that can get you in a lot of trouble against someone you are unfamiliar with.

Re: 15/30 deep bluff
 

kinda reminds me a hand i played against some euro the other day.

i open A8 hu 50/1 with 150bb stacks he calls. flop AK6r he cr pot. turn 2 he pots riv AK626 he shoves. wtfwtwfwtwfw how coudl anyone be dumb enough to bluff hereh327ghrf23f9h. i still call of course and he flips 54s. there is a reason no one bluffs here bc you get called every time

Re: 15/30 deep bluff
 

i think you should have a segment in each thread called "coles corner" where you take the opening post, relate a hand of your own, draw a conclusion, and then we are all a little better off than we were yesterday. actually im copyrighting "coles corner" right now.

Re: 15/30 deep bluff
 

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i think you should have a segment in each thread called "coles corner" where you take the opening post, relate a hand of your own, draw a conclusion, and then we are all a little better off than we were yesterday. actually im copyrighting "coles corner" right now.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a great idea.

Re: 15/30 deep bluff
 

i don't like this at all - the 3 is a terrible river to bluff with. if it worked, which i doubt since you posted it, then hats off to you. if it failed, then i hope you decided not to reload since your play is clearly tilt induced.

Re: 15/30 deep bluff
 

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A lot of villains would snap call here if they had AK, but have their stomach turn if they had A8.


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any thinking villain would know that calling with AK is the same as calling with A8 here. the exception would be when the players in question have an extensive history of playing with each other and a good enough understanding of each other's ranges to make thin value shoves.

if the BB is a "random", then your play is just indicative of a desperation bluff.

Re: 15/30 deep bluff
 

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Your image at the table seemed to be pretty poor at the time, with you getting caught bluffing medium/big a few times and generally racing around the table, so I hated the play. As it turned out, this guy was a bit of a postflop calling station too, (you may not have known yet), but cmon, king, you can't try to force over EVERY pot. Your hand plays SO much better RR'd pre than doing this at the deep tables, and your flop play looks exactly like what it is. methinks you were tilting more than a bit at the time.

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it was a bad play but it had little to do with tilt, and why wouldn't I generally try to run over a lineup this weak? samh was the only guy I knew and he's a nit.

it was more like, leading sucks because he's gonna call me with everything he called on the flop, check folding sucks, check calling really sucks, so wth, process of elimination I'll c/r. river was a panic shove and pretty inexcusable I admit

Re: 15/30 deep bluff
 

I agree with the sentiment that u should try and run over such weak players. It is the line u took tho that is the problem and it stems from errors preflop and flop imo. checkraising flop and leading turn looks much stronger and can even be followed up with a river shove if u are so inclined...it just doesnt look like a flush draw at any stage and makes it much more difficult for the villain to stack you with AT or such stationish hands that he can justify calling with on the current line.

One thing I have learnt is that if u are bluffing stations you should test them for their stack before the river. There is nothing they find easier than making river calls as they think "ah i am probably good here", a read they are harder pressed to make if u test them earlier in the hand. In such a scenario villain will likely flat call the flop check raise but fold to the turn pot bet lead and in he does call u can still draw out so have some draw and fold equity throughout.

If you had AJ or A3 how would u have played flop and turn presuming u don't rr it preflop?

Re: 15/30 deep bluff
 

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leading sucks because he's gonna call me with everything he called on the flop,

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leave 1.5x in store for the third bullet then obv

Re: 15/30 deep bluff
 

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ok i dont know anything about the villain but i'm really snap calling K high here. i hate it when ppl say that when a bluff hand is posted but i'm legit, i really mean it, etc etc etc. this bluff sucks. sorry man.

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Theres no way this is right. If youre BB, your estimate of heros range is greater than 33% busted draws? Maybe people are saying this bluff wont work because people arent willing to make tough folds after they call the turn in this spot, but seriously, this line looks SUPER strong.

Re: 15/30 deep bluff
 

op, you think samh is a nit? interesting...

Re: 15/30 deep bluff
 

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op, you think samh is a nit? interesting...

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anyone who isn't completely insane is considered to be a nit nowadays

Re: 15/30 deep bluff
 

it looks like you missed a flush draw, of course no one ever bluffs when an obvious flush draw misses! not sure what advice you are out to seek here.

Re: 15/30 deep bluff
 

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op, you think samh is a nit? interesting...

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anyone who isn't completely insane is considered to be a nit nowadays

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nit is a relative term

and it's not an insult

Re: 15/30 deep bluff
 

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op, you think samh is a nit? interesting...

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anyone who isn't completely insane is considered to be a nit nowadays

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nit is a relative term

and it's not an insult

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I know, just saying

I don't view him as a nit but he is somewhat nitty by normal 25-50 6m standards

Re: 15/30 deep bluff
 

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Your image at the table seemed to be pretty poor at the time, with you getting caught bluffing medium/big a few times and generally racing around the table, so I hated the play. As it turned out, this guy was a bit of a postflop calling station too, (you may not have known yet), but cmon, king, you can't try to force over EVERY pot. Your hand plays SO much better RR'd pre than doing this at the deep tables, and your flop play looks exactly like what it is. methinks you were tilting more than a bit at the time.

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it was a bad play but it had little to do with tilt, andwhy wouldn't I generally try to run over a lineup this weak? samh was the only guy I knew and he's a nit.

it was more like, leading sucks because he's gonna call me with everything he called on the flop, check folding sucks, check calling really sucks, so wth, process of elimination I'll c/r. river was a panic shove and pretty inexcusable I admit

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[img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Also, panic, maybe, but you did time down before shoving.

P.S. Dunno about trying to run over calling stations. Nits like me, sure, but calling stations?

Re: 15/30 deep bluff
 

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ok i dont know anything about the villain but i'm really snap calling K high here. i hate it when ppl say that when a bluff hand is posted but i'm legit, i really mean it, etc etc etc. this bluff sucks. sorry man.

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Example of this type of call plz or I call shenanigans!

Re: 15/30 deep bluff
 

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ok i dont know anything about the villain but i'm really snap calling K high here. i hate it when ppl say that when a bluff hand is posted but i'm legit, i really mean it, etc etc etc. this bluff sucks. sorry man.

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Example of this type of call plz or I call shenanigans!

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hahaha! she has Q high calls up the wazoo...

Re: 15/30 deep bluff
 

i dont hate this as much as everyone else does, but i am struggling to see what he is betting on the turn and then calling and then will fold the river.

maybe like Jxss?

although the river card does suck because your hands like A2 dont shove anymore and its harder for you to have the 3