Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

random - 1. All outcomes being equally probable
2. Unpredictable

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No physical event in the universe is "truly" random. We can really only discuss probabilities when assuming a certain level of ignorance. Adding knowledge means that the probabilities change. Absent any amount of ignorance (as would be the case for an omniscient figure), and all events either have probability 1 or 0, even flipping a fair coin.


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A discussion under the omnipotence thread here led to a minor discssion about randomness. mickeyg made the above response to a post of mine concerning randomness.

I agree with mickey concernig random events in the physical universe. But I wondered if there ever was or could be a truely random event. This led me to consider the theory of the big bang.

My limited knowledge has the theory stating that time began at the big bang. Before the big bang there existed a singularity or black hole. The theory of a black hole has all laws of physics break down in the black hole. If this is true, if I have it correct, does this man that events within a black hole are undeterminable and unpredictable?

We humans have knowledge of one event that has occurred within a black hole. That is the big bang (expansion). Since within the black hole events were are unpredictable does this fact alone make the big bang a truly random physical event?

pokervintage

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

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Bing Bang

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Sounds like some horrible experiment involving Bing Crosby doing porn.

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

We might still be in that black hole...the Universe might not be able to escape (gavitationally) from itself. So put aside questions about black holes and randomness. I think it's better to realize that since there were no laws of physics before the BB (as you point out), you cannot say what caused it, if anything. In fact, if time is a complex quantity, then there is no 'before' the BB anyway.

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

I don't see how this Mickey guy could possibly know that there aren't any truly random events. There could be an omniscient figure which only knows knowable things. Some events might simply be unforseeable/unknowable. There are obvious limits to omniscience and omnipotence.

Personally I think scientists can't justifiably answer this kind of question. It's not something that observation and induction ever could solve. Mostly because we have such a limited perspective on the universe.

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

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I don't see how this Mickey guy could possibly know that there aren't any truly random events. There could be an omniscient figure which only knows knowable things. Some events might simply be unforseeable/unknowable. There are obvious limits to omniscience and omnipotence.

Personally I think scientists can't justifiably answer this kind of question. It's not something that observation and induction ever could solve. Mostly because we have such a limited perspective on the universe.

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There are not "obvious" limits to omnipotence and omniscience. There are obvious PROBLEMS with claiming something is omnipotent and omniscient and trying to conceptualize that, and there are obvious "total BS assertions that I have no reason to accept" that are proposed to try to paper over those problems.

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

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There are not "obvious" limits to omnipotence and omniscience. There are obvious PROBLEMS with claiming something is omnipotent and omniscient and trying to conceptualize that, and there are obvious "total BS assertions that I have no reason to accept" that are proposed to try to paper over those problems.

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Meh, most people (philosopher types) just accept that there on limits on God if he exists. You are definitely right about the papering over bit. It's the same with the 'trinity of the unity' types, once somebody just rejects simple logic and says God doesn't have to abide by it then the discussion can't really progress.
Out of curiosity:
Do you think God can know the unknowable if he exists? Do you think everything is knowable? If yes to the second question, why?

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

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Meh, most people (philosopher types) just accept that there on limits on God if he exists.

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Philosopher and mathematician René Descartes disagrees with that. Surely logic was tremendously important to him as a mathematician, yet he also accepted that God could defy logic. To Descartes, God truly was without limits I believe.

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

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I don't see how this Mickey guy could possibly know that there aren't any truly random events. There could be an omniscient figure which only knows knowable things. Some events might simply be unforseeable/unknowable. There are obvious limits to omniscience and omnipotence.

Personally I think scientists can't justifiably answer this kind of question. It's not something that observation and induction ever could solve. Mostly because we have such a limited perspective on the universe.

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I guess I shouldn't have made quite such a blanket statement about randomness. Quantum mechanics is theorized to contain random events on the microscopic scale. Let's put those aside for a second. If there were a physical event that is both truly random AND not related to quantum mechanics, then it would mean science got something wrong.

Take flipping a coin. It seems random because we accept a certain degree of ignorance. We don't know the precise dimensions and mass of the coin. We don't know the precise amount of force that will be applied in the flipping action. We don't know how much wind resistance there will be, etc. All of these things appear to behave according to known laws of physics. If all of those variables were known, and all those laws of physics are correct, then all the information about the coin flip can be calculated and predicted. If the coin flip is truly random then, it must be that those laws of physics were wrong.

Now if you want to throw quantum mechanics in there, things get ugly, and personally I don't feel that the problem has been satisfactorily solved (hidden variable theories and what not). I'm no physicist, but I believe quantum mechanics was disputed by Einstein among others.

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

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Meh, most people (philosopher types) just accept that there on limits on God if he exists.

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Philosopher and mathematician René Descartes disagrees with that. Surely logic was tremendously important to him as a mathematician, yet he also accepted that God could defy logic. To Descartes, God truly was without limits I believe.

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Descartes is so 1600s.

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

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We humans have knowledge of one event that has occurred within a black hole. That is the big bang (expansion).

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The big bang did not arise from a black hole.