Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

2+2,

I’m sorry for the delay in posting to the bot thread. We felt it was very important to thoroughly review the investigation notes and findings again before commenting and I should have just posted a quick message to let you guys know we were looking into it.

We were definitely aware of the importance of this situation and held a series of meetings to discuss our established policies as well as the terms of this specific case. While I am unable to discuss the specific details of the investigation, I will make some general comments.

We take bots very seriously, and for obvious reasons cannot go into the details of our policies, procedures and detection methods. Our meetings served to further refine these policies and processes in general terms, and also with regards to this investigation specifically. Having said that, if Full Tilt Poker Security confirms the use of a bot by any player, all accounts involved would be permanently closed and all funds remaining in the accounts could be subject to seizure.

After doing our due diligence in this case, we came to the following determinations:

• During the investigation we found the evidence to be inconclusive in supporting either determination (human or bot).

• After careful consideration, the evidence did not warrant the seizure of funds and permanent account closure.

• We stand by our decision. Having said that, re-opening an account after an investigation such as this one does not mean we have made an irreversible decision. We will continue to reevaluate this situation.

It is our responsibility to ensure a level playing field for all of our players. As evidenced by this thread, some situations are not as clear cut as they first appear and require additional refinement of established policies and procedures. We are working on additional measures to detect any activity that compromises the integrity and fairness of our games; this is of paramount importance and will never be taken lightly.

Sean

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
We don't take bots very seriously[/b]

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP.

[ QUOTE ]
During the investigation we found the evidence to be inconclusive in supporting either determination (human or bot).

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah the whole thing where they have the exact same stats, play the exact same style, log on and off at the same time and even though they play more than anyone they have never played against each other once, it's not suspicious at all.

And the whole Pittsburgh connection thing, man that's just a one in a million coincidence! Wild!

[ QUOTE ]
After careful consideration, the evidence did not warrant the seizure of funds and permanent account closure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hahahhahahahahahaha.

Yeah. Are you at all ashamed of yourself?

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

I would like to see the T&C / Poker rules on your site updated with alot more detail about what is and is not allowed in regards to

- outside 3rd party poker software
- datamining
- automation scripts/tools

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

What a joke. I'm not playing at FTP anymore.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

I'm interested to see where this leads. The evidence seems pretty clear cut to me.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

TRANSLATION: They sent us their utility bills and credit card information. There is no credit card fraud going on, so we no longer care.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
We take bots very seriously, and for obvious reasons cannot go into the details of our policies, procedures and detection methods.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm with you on procedures and detection methods, but policies seem like something your customers are entitled to know about. It would suck for someone to get money seized for violating a secret policy.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

"we found the evidence to be inconclusive"

WHEW - that makes me feel better!

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

Sean - listen, I appreciate that FTP maintains a presence on this board instead of making an appearance to engage in glorified spamming without returning (a la Mike O'Useless), but you gave us precisely zero information with this post.

It reeks of corporate CYA-language, and was exactly the type of answer that posters in the long thread were dreading we would get. No one expects you to divulge your bot-detection techniques (in fact, I think i can speak for all of us when I say that we PREFER you keep them to yourself), but there were plenty of ways you could have expounded on this investigation in particular without compromising your future bot-security.
<font color="green">

If I may make one request, it's the following: you (at FTP) have access to every single HH played on your site. The most damning piece of evidence in this thread was the similarity of the many "sweatshopper's" stats which, although they may not be out-and-out bots, clearly (to EVERYONE) indicated some type of automation. Throughout the 1,000+ posts in the other thread, that was the one piece of evidence that no one -- and i mean NO ONE, not even NLnut's supporters -- could explain satisfactorily. We even had stat geeks post their detailed calculations showing how incredibly improbable attaining such uniformity, ESPECIALLY in post-flop actions, would be. I, for one, would be very grateful if you could tell me whether, looking at the unlimited HHs that you have access to and talking it over with the stat geeks on your end, could confirm for us -- and give reasons how -- individual players could possibly achieve that kind of uniformity. You don't have to give us any 'evidence' from THIS case in particular...I just want you, given your access to millions upon millions of HHs, to help this forum understand how those post-flop statistics could come about without some kind of automation. I think this is a fair and reasonable request, and one eminently within your powers.</font>

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

If the evidence was found to be inconclusive, why were the account not closed? If there is even a small chance the accounts could be bots at all the accounts should all be closed and the funds seized. And wtf if the evidence was inconclusive then how did you determine that the evidence did not warrant the seizure of funds? This is completely rediculous that nothing has been done.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
It reeks of corporate CYA-language, and was exactly the type of answer that posters in the long thread were absolutely 100% sure we would get.

[/ QUOTE ]
FYP

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

Well, that clears up everything.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sean - listen, I appreciate that FTP maintains a presence on this board instead of making an appearance to engage in glorified spamming without returning (a la Mike O'Useless), but you gave us precisely zero information with this post.

It reeks of corporate CYA-language, and was exactly the type of answer that posters in the long thread were dreading we would get.

[/ QUOTE ]

FTP's response - "We take bots very seriously, and for obvious reasons cannot go into the details of our policies, procedures and detection methods."
hahahah

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

Sean.

You guys should have already had your response prepared before completing the investigation.

I mean... didn't you guys think that this thread would happen?

Come on, you guys are making enough money to hire some smart people.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
We take bots very seriously

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah after your players tell you about them. I think everyone agrees you aren't doing nearly enough to stop bots.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

Like others have said this post is incredibly anti-climatic and offers nothing in terms of resoultion or appeasement. While have a 2p2 FTP representative is nice, I think posts like these hurt more than anything. I don't have my tin foil hat on yet, but reading about stuff like this is terribly disheartening.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
• During the investigation we found the evidence to be inconclusive in supporting either determination (human or bot).

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course the results were inconclusive. Short of having a video of them cheating or using spyware to find a bot program on their computer (and from what I understand even this can be easily circumvented), there's no way you can have 100% conclusive proof that they were botting.

However, by examining the stats and the responses by the suspects themselves in this thread, it should be fairly obvious that these guys are a huge favorite to be playing in an unethical manner.

-The deviations between the stats show less variation than what a single player would show between various samples.

-At least one of the guys has lied more than once in the thread.

-They always play at the same time. Nobody ever takes a pee break, nobody plays from their home computer, etc. etc.

-They claim to constantly discuss hands, yet their game never changed nor improved during the course of the data set.

This isn't an American court. A reasonable doubt alone isn't enough to justify allowing these guys to continue to play on Full Tilt. As long as these guys are better than 50% to be cheating, Full Tilt has every reason to show them the door. Personally I make it at better than 90% they're cheating.

EDIT: If you want to keep your customers satisfied, you'll either bounce these guys or claim here that they were a dog to be botting.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
If the evidence was found to be inconclusive, why were the account not closed? If there is even a small chance the accounts could be bots at all the accounts should all be closed and the funds seized.

[/ QUOTE ]
I am going to quote this in case some day, some way, your account gets closed for the wrong reason.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

no, not responding made things worse, It's not as if he could have posted anything differently. This answer is satisfactory to me as an official statement coming from FTP. If they actually are continuing to refine measures as they say they are, there is nothing more that can be done.

Oh, and answer the question in green please.

Crovax

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="green">We even had stat geeks post their detailed calculations</font>

[/ QUOTE ]
Teddy,

Maybe we should supply Sean with a list of reputable math/stat geeks on this board that can work with FullTilt on issues like this one. If FT doesn't have people as qualified (I'm not saying they do or don't, but IMO they don't) then they might benefit greatly from this scenario.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
If the evidence was found to be inconclusive, why were the account not closed? If there is even a small chance the accounts could be bots at all the accounts should all be closed and the funds seized. And wtf if the evidence was inconclusive then how did you determine that the evidence did not warrant the seizure of funds? This is completely rediculous that nothing has been done.

[/ QUOTE ]

well this is going to far and you just sound plain stupid

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

But guys, think of all the rake they make off these guys, they play all day and don't even need breaks to take a piss!!!

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
We take bots very seriously

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont take FTP very seriously. What more evidence do you need to prove a player is a bot? This seems rather clear cut to me. That would prove to me that you take this much more seriously than just stating "We take bots very seriously".

Personally I think you should let them have their funds and perma ban them for life.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
If the evidence was found to be inconclusive, why were the account not closed? If there is even a small chance the accounts could be bots at all the accounts should all be closed and the funds seized. And wtf if the evidence was inconclusive then how did you determine that the evidence did not warrant the seizure of funds? This is completely rediculous that nothing has been done.

[/ QUOTE ]
You are completely wrong. I am glad that FTP does not arbitrarily confiscate accounts. I can't believe your position.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

If it was so inconclusive why don't you tell them they are not allowed to play at the same house from now on?

It doesn't have to be a new rule for anyone besides them. Or you can make it a new rule and exempt roommates/spouses that don't play like bots.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

Without having a dog in this fight this is almost the exact response I could have written and certainly the one I expected.
I am neither shocked nor overly concerned that it was so predictable.
That's not to say I don't think something shady is going on. I most certainly do.
I think more than anything this points out how sites have to continually work on defining what they want at their sites and what they don't.
The more interesting aspect to me is where this goes from here as opposed to where it has been.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and forget about this whole thing, only because it didn't affect me personally. I will never play at FTP again however.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]

It is our responsibility to ensure a level playing field for all of our players

[/ QUOTE ]

so im assuming then you are going to let the players in question change user names?

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

I have read pretty much all the posts and am pretty much OK with FTP standing by their decision to not seize the funds. I may have a bias towards giving someone the benefit of the doubt, but even after reading all the stat geek's posts, I wasn't convinced they had proved "bots."

But what they did prove was a level of similarity and consistency that is just way beyond the capacity of the normal human, in other words, even if they didn't actually use "bots" they, through a combination of scripts (both computer and written) and coordination, achieved the perfect imitation of a "bot."

My bottom line is, this doesnt seem to violate the current rules, but it should.

So OK, they found a loophole and exploited it, we cant really blame them for that - we're poker players afterall.

But once FTP "exonerated" them, and rightfully returned their money, they should have told them this model of coordinated play was no longer allowed and should have already started revising the T&amp;C to make this type of play a violation.

This was 3 or 4 guys who managed to play exactly like bots. If they can do it, whats to stop a group of 50, or 100? And if that were to happen, I would want to take my play elsewhere.

Skallagrim

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
TRANSLATION: They sent us their utility bills and credit card information. There is no credit card fraud going on, so we no longer care.

[/ QUOTE ]

hahaha

I dont think these guys are bots and even I think thats exactly what happened on FullTilts end

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If the evidence was found to be inconclusive, why were the account not closed? If there is even a small chance the accounts could be bots at all the accounts should all be closed and the funds seized. And wtf if the evidence was inconclusive then how did you determine that the evidence did not warrant the seizure of funds? This is completely rediculous that nothing has been done.

[/ QUOTE ]
You are completely wrong. I am glad that FTP does not arbitrarily confiscate accounts. I can't believe your position.

[/ QUOTE ]
After rereading my post I have realized I sound like I mean that FTP should seize funds of players they slightly suspect to be bots. I definitly worded the whole post wrong but I am quite confused as to why there is insufficent evidence (what I should have said, FTPSean didn't really touch on this subject). It just seems crazy that there is a chance these players could be bots but nothing can be done. However, it is understandable that they players in question could also be humans. I retract my statements in my previous post. It is obviously not right for FTP to just seize player's account with hardly any solid evidence/proof.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
We take bots very seriously

[/ QUOTE ]

HAHAHAHA!

Oh, wait, you weren't joking?

Okay, then please answer me this:

1) Given that pretty much everyone, including those who believe the accused are innocent, agrees that this whole thing looks seriously suspicious why were these accounts not flagged and investigated earlier by FTP? Why did it take a complaint? Why do your users have to do your job for you?

2) Why did the investigation (as with all FTP investigations) take so long?

3) Why was there such a lack of communication? Both between FTP and the complainant and between FTP and the accused?

4) Given that FTP failed to completely exonerate the accused, did FTP consider allowing them to withdraw their funds and then banning them? While I absolutely agree that funds should be seized only when there is overwhelming evidence of wrongdoing (not that this has been the case in the past with FTP since FTP has a history of seizing funds with little or no justification) this would seem to be a viable alternative. Much like how B&amp;M casinos handle suspected cheats and card counters. Is this an option FTP has ever considered? Or is that guaranteed income from generated rake the over-riding concern and not the integrity of the game? (Even if it is merely the perceived integrity of the game).

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

I don't believe the funds should be confiscated. I think the burden of proof should be higher for funds to be seized.

That being said, I would say I am 80% or so convinced there is some sort of automation going on here which is clearly against the T&amp;C. Give them their money, and tell them to find a new site to play at if the evidence is inconclusive as you said it was.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

Sean, we all agree that they aren't "bots." Your post literally just did nothing.

They are playing using automated software, have you seen the convergence of their stats (4)individual 100k hand samples. It is not even possible for the same person to have those identical stats, yet alone 4 different individuals.

Nation confirmed that it is a "sweatshop," yet you only deny they are not bots. We KNOW THEY AREN'T bots, the humans intervene at times, OBVIOUSLY.

Do something, anything to regain some credibility.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

If not bots, then it cannot be anything other then multi-accounting. One player gives the shots, the others just push the buttons.
Just another ZeeJustin variant.
Never in a million years can have different players stats that are so much alike!

FTPSean, are you taking me for a fool?!

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
2) Why did the investigation (as with all FTP investigations) take so long?

[/ QUOTE ]
You answered this one yourself. FTP's investigations take a long time. If this one hadn't, you'd be demanding to know why all the others take so long.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
2+2,

I’m sorry for the delay in posting to the bot thread. We felt it was very important to thoroughly review the investigation notes and findings again before commenting and I should have just posted a quick message to let you guys know we were looking into it.

We were definitely aware of the importance of this situation and held a series of meetings to discuss our established policies as well as the terms of this specific case. While I am unable to discuss the specific details of the investigation, I will make some general comments.

We take bots very seriously, and for obvious reasons cannot go into the details of our policies, procedures and detection methods. Our meetings served to further refine these policies and processes in general terms, and also with regards to this investigation specifically. Having said that, if Full Tilt Poker Security confirms the use of a bot by any player, all accounts involved would be permanently closed and all funds remaining in the accounts could be subject to seizure.

After doing our due diligence in this case, we came to the following determinations:

• During the investigation we found the evidence to be inconclusive in supporting either determination (human or bot).

• After careful consideration, the evidence did not warrant the seizure of funds and permanent account closure.

• We stand by our decision. Having said that, re-opening an account after an investigation such as this one does not mean we have made an irreversible decision. We will continue to reevaluate this situation.

It is our responsibility to ensure a level playing field for all of our players. As evidenced by this thread, some situations are not as clear cut as they first appear and require additional refinement of established policies and procedures. We are working on additional measures to detect any activity that compromises the integrity and fairness of our games; this is of paramount importance and will never be taken lightly.

Sean

[/ QUOTE ]

I really hope you guys have read that entire thread. At least one of the "three" who looks to be involved repeatedly lied and later admitted he lied repeatedly. Why would he do that if he had nothing to hide?

This looks shamelessly opportunistic to me and I will not likely be playing on Full Tilt again.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
you'd be demanding to know why all the others take so long.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am.

A month is absolutely ridiculous. There is no excuse for this to be standard operating procedure at any poker site.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
My bottom line is, this doesnt seem to violate the current rules, but it should.

So OK, they found a loophole and exploited it, we cant really blame them for that - we're poker players afterall.

But once FTP "exonerated" them, and rightfully returned their money, they should have told them this model of coordinated play was no longer allowed and should have already started revising the T&amp;C to make this type of play a violation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

All,

1) It's pretty friggin hard for FT to ban 100k hand/mo users unless they know for certain that something "illegal" is going on. [censored], after all of that overwhelming evidence that SukitTrebek presented, and all the analysis done by dozens of quality sleuthing and poker experts, even WE don't even for certain. It's all speculation. Allow FT the time to conduct this "further investigation" using this new evidence and stop jumping down their throats.

2) A month ago, FT most likely didn't have all of the same information and insight that we have had in the last day or two. I fully believe that some of 2+2's math and stat geeks are much more advanced than FT's. After all, this is the top poker forum in the world.

3) Keep making fun of FTPDoug and FTPSean when they come here...please! It's cool to laugh in their faces and yell at them like you're little kids. Regardless of what kind of entitlement you guys feel, they don't owe us anything. Both FT reps that frequent this board come here on their own will, and it's not beneficial for us to scare them away. A month from now, I really don't feel like reading complaints about how they don't come here anymore.

The FT bashing and threats to leave have gotten completely out of hand. Go somewhere else if you want. Who cares? But please don't ruin it for the rest of us that happen to appreciate it when a site goes above and beyond to try and satisfy such a small percentage of its overall player base.

Thanks,
OH