(stud8) how best to handle 4th st?
 

What is the best move to try to clear the field a little? I'd prefer that the low draws fold. Bet out as first to act, representing that the A hit me or that I have 4 low cards? Or try to check-raise hoping that the K or the late low will bet?

How much do I lose by trying to check-raise and having it check through?

7 Card Stud High-Low ($0.50/$1.00), Ante $0.05, Bring-In $0.25 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.80 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls___calls

4th Street - (4.80 SB)

Seat 4: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ___???
Seat 6: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Seat 8: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: (stud8) how best to handle 4th st?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd prefer that the low draws fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about having a more realistic goal? No one is folding a low draw on fourth.

P.S. Fold third.

Re: (stud8) how best to handle 4th st?
 

well third is probably a fold for a full bet, however if the king didn't raise i'd limp along.

fourth you caught you absolute gin card, other than a trey. Id probably just lead out, your calling one bet anyways. I don't expect to see any raising unless the king is rolled up.

Re: (stud8) how best to handle 4th st?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd prefer that the low draws fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about having a more realistic goal? No one is folding a low draw on fourth.

P.S. Fold third.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not even Seat 8 facing 25, 3A and an overpair?

Re: (stud8) how best to handle 4th st?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not even Seat 8 facing 25, 3A and an overpair?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think so, not at this limit. Besides, it's 4th and you know how fast a low hand can turn into over 8 junk. He's gonna wait and see if they start to get big cards.

Re: (stud8) how best to handle 4th st?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not even Seat 8 facing 25, 3A and an overpair?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think so, not at this limit. Besides, it's 4th and you know how fast a low hand can turn into over 8 junk. He's gonna wait and see if they start to get big cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. The 87 should be folding to a bet on 4th, unless he's got a good high draw like 8765 or trips/two pair. Drawing to a disconnected 87 low while looking at 25 and 3A is just asking to go broke. But since we only have a 3-card low ourselves, we want him to fold.

Re: (stud8) how best to handle 4th st?
 

I told Rusty to post this hand because we disagreed on 4th Street. I advocated betting out on 4th but he thought a C/R was better because it would be more likely to clear the field.

The problem I see in this spot, is who's going to bet after we catch an Ace? The best person to have bet to thin the field is the guy with Kings on our right. He'll be hard-pressed to bet in the face of 3 guys showing possible 4-card lows and us after we just caught an Ace. If he does bet and we C/R, he's probably got Kings up, and I don't think we want to be HU with him holding a 3-card low and baby pair. We'll have to catch mighty good on 5th for us to even continue, and it'll cost us an additional small bet to get to this spot.

Betting 4th seems like the natural thing. Everyone will be scared of it and we want to get people to fold. I think if we check, it's way too likely it'll check around and I don't like the idea of everyone else (especially the low hands, one who was the BI) to get a free look at 5th. I prefer taking control of the action and if the cards come down favorably on 5th, we might be able to take the pot then.

Re: (stud8) how best to handle 4th st?
 

I think that if you check, the 2,5 is usually going to bet, not the King. Even if it worked out and it checked to the King that bet, the low-draws are not likely to fold.

You're behind both ways, so I don't think it checking through "costs you anything." I think a free card would be a fine outcome.

That said, I think you are unlikely to get a free card, and since you have enough to call, I would just bet out.

I would hate to be the King in this spot. I would be very tempted to fold a pair of Kings in this spot. There is no way I'm betting them if it checks to me.

Re: (stud8) how best to handle 4th st?
 

It did in fact check through, bless their tender souls.

Re: (stud8) how best to handle 4th st?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think that if you check, the 2,5 is usually going to bet, not the King. Even if it worked out and it checked to the King that bet, the low-draws are not likely to fold.

You're behind both ways, so I don't think it checking through "costs you anything." I think a free card would be a fine outcome.

That said, I think you are unlikely to get a free card, and since you have enough to call, I would just bet out.

I would hate to be the King in this spot. I would be very tempted to fold a pair of Kings in this spot. There is no way I'm betting them if it checks to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that the BI is the most likely of our Villains to bet 4th if we check. And if they all call, which is what people are predicting, then check-raising as last to act seems like a really bad idea.

I think 3rd is a fold. But we're in the pot now so let's take advantage of catching a great card. If I'm one of the Villains, I put Hero squarely on a good 4-card low or Aces. The BI's range is a bit wider because it's only half of a small bet to call 3rd, but he probably doesn't have total crap. He can't like his hand too much if the 5 paired him with a known overpair already involved.

Re: (stud8) how best to handle 4th st?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It did in fact check through, bless their tender souls.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't mind checking and having it check through. Your hand is still not that good and you are not trying to bluff out 3 players when both low cards caught "good".

Re: (stud8) how best to handle 4th st?
 

Yeah, I'm not really hoping for like everyone to fold here, but a lot of the time they're drawing about like me with less chance for high, and I'd just prefer to thin the field a little. I don't think it's too terrible if it checks through except that if I don't catch well on 5th I'll have no chance at forcing anyone out. But my total involvement in the hand so far is 1sb so I can fold 5th no problem if it comes down bad.

I actually agree that 3rd is bad. For some reason when I was playing the hand I thought I was just calling the bringin but at the same time I expected the K to try a raise because he raised on 3rd. I suppose I was a little distracted or scatter brained at the time. I wouldn't call that a normal call for me.

Re: (stud8) how best to handle 4th st?
 

The king would be an idiot to bet 4th with all the low hands catching, unless he is rolled up or has concealed aces.

Re: (stud8) how best to handle 4th st?
 

Lead out. I don't like c/r at all because if you don't improve this hand is so bad on 5th street. It's not as pretty as you think. This hand is not about forcing other draws out, it's about making your own.

I think I might actually check through because it's a pretty good move anyway and with my playing style it would look super-weird. At a normal table with a normal image just throw a dollar in there and let the rake eat it

Re: (stud8) how best to handle 4th st?
 

The best way to clear the field is to announce that the freeroll tournament is beginning, and hope they time out while trying to sign up. Nobody is going nowhere at this limit.

Betting out can set up a play on a later street, and if the bring-in raises you, you pray the other villains are smart enough to fold. Otherwise, check-call, and hope for a free card.

But you wouldn't be in this situation if you had folded this turkey on third, like you should have.

Re: (stud8) how best to handle 4th st?
 

Fold third. Like the panel says, no one is folding on fourth anyway. I would probably just bet out. If you can't gamble with this hand when you catch the A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], you definitely shouldn't have been in there in the first place.

Re: (stud8) how best to handle 4th st?
 

Whether you should check or bet out on 4th street isn't NEARLY as important as the decision you chose on 3rd. Yeah, you can wind up catching good down the road, but you are starting out at a disadvantage against a 3 card low draw and a high pair. Wait for a better spot. If you want to play it, then be the first one in the pot and raise it yourself (preferably in a steal spot or in shorthanded play).

That said, If you bet out on 4th, you might fold off the King doorcard in fear that you just hit Aces (unless he is rolled up or has AA in the hole). But I can't see you folding off the other two hands if 4th street wound up improving their hands.

Btw, if you checkraised the hand against me, I'm probably going to be more inclined to give you AA opposed to a strong low draw, because, most players will try to thin the field with a pair yet they wouldn't do that with a good draw, because good draws will always welcome the field. So, if you checkraise, the other lows are going to put you on AA, so then why wouldn't they continue to draw for their lows (and especially if one or both of them are drawing to straights)? And (vice versa) if you bet right out (trying to rep. the low draw) then if either one of them has a pair, well they're probably going to call that bet, too. So, it's six on one hand, half a dozen on the other...can't have it both ways, you either have a low draw or some kind of a high hand, and until the hands unfold a bit more, your opponents, at this time, are going to be more concerned at what they hold.

I would bet the turn, followed by checking, followed by checkraising. I don't think CR'ing accomplishes what you would like it to accomplish, and now you have cost yourself 2 bets.