2-7 Hand 100-200 at the Bellagio
 

Yesterday I had the following hand. I wonder if you would play it in a different way. 4 players mixed games with chinese poker. Robert Mizrachi raise on the CO. I have
2345 on the B and 3B, Bobby Belander calls in the SB, Artoface falls in the BB. Mizrachi pat, I draw one and surprise a 7!!! Bobby draw 2. Bobby checks, Rob bets I call Bobby call. Second draw Rob pat and Bobby 2 again. Rob bet, I call and Bobby folds. 3 draw pat, pat. Rob bet I raised and he folds 87532. I ask to a very strong player about my play and he told me I should raise after the first draw. Any thoughts?

Re: 2-7 Hand 100-200 at the Bellagio
 

Sorry, preflop Rob 4b, call, call.

Re: 2-7 Hand 100-200 at the Bellagio
 

I don't mind your line that much. JR could well be dead, and if you raise after the first draw and JR is down to one and hits on the 2nd draw, he's going to c/r Rob off of most all his holdings after the 2nd draw.

The big downside to your line is that even #2 should stop raising as soon as you come alive for a raise, so you prevent yourself from winning a truly huge pot.

Given how the action actually went, you gained a small bet from JR, but missed a small bet from Rob since I imagine Rob would have called you down.

So lets assume JR would have folded if you had raised after the first draw, and misses on the 2nd draw and folds (what actually happenned) You break even with your line.

Lets assume JR would have folded but then gets down to one and misses, you gain an extra bet.

Lets assume JR draws on the 2nd draw and c/r's, you stand to gain alot of extra action since Rob might 3 bet to isolate you.

Lets assume JR goes 2,1, and leads into the field, you will gain an extra 3.5-5.5 big bets from your line.

Take the approximate possibilities of all of these occurances, compare it to how much value you gain if JR doesn't fold after the first draw unimproved, value gained if JR gets down to one and would have called (might not be that much, since JR is going to check-raise the 2nd draw and drive rob out pretty much every time) and the chances Rob gets in a raising war with you on any street (by either trying to overrep his hand, drive JR out, or he actually got dealt a solid pat hand) And it's probably fairly close.

Re: 2-7 Hand 100-200 at the Bellagio
 

Very strong player is correct, I think this is a terrible terrible slowplay. One, Bobby might chase anyway (especially on the cheap round), two, you don't give Mizrachi a chance to jam with you if he someone was dealt a pat monster (and pat monsters go hard and far because they know nobody believes they were dealt something that good), and three, if Mizrachi has a breakable hand you want to give him the chance to break and improve. Finally, this is pretty bad for your metagame because what are you doing when you catch an 8 here, a 9?

Oh I cap it pre draw.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 2-7 Hand 100-200 at the Bellagio
 

karpov - by playing the hand the way you did you turned your hand right side up for everyone to see, . Think about how many bets you probably missed... Robbert on the other hand played well because your hand was either a rough 8/fishy 9 looking to get to showdown cheep or a monster. Hell, I'd fold 23458 vs a river raise from you but I'd probably call #2-#4 because I am a showdown monkey.

Re: 2-7 Hand 100-200 at the Bellagio
 

DD is right, pls raise more at every opportunity

Re: 2-7 Hand 100-200 at the Bellagio
 

[ QUOTE ]
Very strong player is correct, I think this is a terrible terrible slowplay. One, Bobby might chase anyway (especially on the cheap round), two, you don't give Mizrachi a chance to jam with you if he someone was dealt a pat monster (and pat monsters go hard and far because they know nobody believes they were dealt something that good), and three, if Mizrachi has a breakable hand you want to give him the chance to break and improve. Finally, this is pretty bad for your metagame because what are you doing when you catch an 8 here, a 9?

Oh I cap it pre draw.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

note that I think I play it like you suggest every single time. Your metagame reasons might be the most important aspect as well. Most of your rushes in TD come from showing down tons of monsters then being able to get frisky in position with 9's.

But the position of the pat player in this hand is very crucial. If Rob and JR changed seats, slowplaying would be a crime here, because you can control when JR is facing calling 2 bets cold.

If you do the math and likely scenarios, it's not AS bad as you might think. Largely because of my limited experience with Rob, he's not going to get in a raising war here all that often, since he's not in position to squeeze JR out. That's why if their seats were reversed, it would be a much better spot for you, and not raising after the first draw would be a crime. However, if JR is stubborn and doesn't get squeezed, this is all moot. Never played with him, but obviously he's supposed to be action.

Also, I'd like some discussion about capping predraw. You're going to be 3 betting and drawing 1 with a large range of hands here, doesn't capping predraw significantly hurt your action against 86's down to #3 on later streets? Or is just getting the 2 small bets in that important both for value and to inflate the size of the pot to encourage JR to chase here if you hit? I can't imagine the value alone is too strong over Rob's 4 betting range in comparison to the value lost from essentially turning your hand over. (There's no way for capping predraw not to turn your hand over, because you aren't exactly going to be capping 2368 type hands or worse for deception value since it's just a massive spew)

Re: 2-7 Hand 100-200 at the Bellagio
 

Palman you make good points, especially about the cap predraw. At first my thinking was its for value against two opponents, and it keeps Rob from doing anything fancy, like if he holds 97542 or something he very well may just toss the 9 right away, fearing you are pat behind, and so you will never have to guess where he is at - if he's pat he will have a legit hand or an unbreakable one, if he draws one, you know he has a good one card draw and you won't get too out of line later in the hand.

But I think your point about you not capping 2368 here (a clear mistake IMO) is the best reason to just call the 4 bet. I guess we can conclude that without some overriding factor, we should only cap here if we intend to be pat? The 5 bet cap changes the dynamic from a typical online game.

I still feel fastplaying has some advantages and obviously no downside (as it would be "standard"), my image is always LAG though, so for me fastplaying is essential.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 2-7 Hand 100-200 at the Bellagio
 

Nobody has mentioned the fact that I considered when I didn't raise after the first draw. Rob plays loose, so is more probable to have a week hand than #2 or 85 and I was trying to give the chance to Bobby to make any kind of hand that for sure he would get crazy with. I think is interesting my play with this kind of players, I didn't want Bobby to fold and Rob break miss fold. Not sure if I could win more bets playing the way everybody likes here.

Re: 2-7 Hand 100-200 at the Bellagio
 

[ QUOTE ]
Nobody has mentioned the fact that I considered when I didn't raise after the first draw. Rob plays loose, so is more probable to have a week hand than #2 or 85 and I was trying to give the chance to Bobby to make any kind of hand that for sure he would get crazy with. I think is interesting my play with this kind of players, I didn't want Bobby to fold and Rob break miss fold. Not sure if I could win more bets playing the way everybody likes here.

[/ QUOTE ]

If all this is true than it sounds like you are too nitty / predictable in other spots. Bobby should have a difficult decision if he improves to a good one card draw right away and its two bets to him. As I said in my first post, what are you doing when you catch an 8 or a 9 on the first draw? Same goes for Rob breaking, he should have to chase til the last draw or you are too predictable.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 2-7 Hand 100-200 at the Bellagio
 

Despite all of his faults, JRB is too good at this game to give you plenty of action after you slowplay a streat or two and than come alive if he makes a #2-#10.. Tons of drawbacks to this line, almost no positive benfits even if the other 2 players have/make monsters.

Re: 2-7 Hand 100-200 at the Bellagio
 

[ QUOTE ]
Palman you make good points, especially about the cap predraw. At first my thinking was its for value against two opponents, and it keeps Rob from doing anything fancy, like if he holds 97542 or something he very well may just toss the 9 right away, fearing you are pat behind, and so you will never have to guess where he is at - if he's pat he will have a legit hand or an unbreakable one, if he draws one, you know he has a good one card draw and you won't get too out of line later in the hand.

But I think your point about you not capping 2368 here (a clear mistake IMO) is the best reason to just call the 4 bet. I guess we can conclude that without some overriding factor, we should only cap here if we intend to be pat? The 5 bet cap changes the dynamic from a typical online game.

I still feel fastplaying has some advantages and obviously no downside (as it would be "standard"), my image is always LAG though, so for me fastplaying is essential.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

And I think I don't consider getting Rob to break 97 96, 95 or some 87's often when I should, so perhaps capping predraw has plenty of advantages. It's close for sure. If JR is drawing 2 I also like a raise after the first draw into Rob if he's pat or not. Should get him to break most of the same hands, is a great image play if you are worried about opponnents breaking on you too often when you do make vulnerable hands better than 87, and should frustrate him enough to make him pay you off even after raising after the 2nd draw.

8632 was a little strong on the point I was trying to make, although if I said 8753 or something, my point would have been obvious.

To he who said there's no benefits to taking this line, If JR gets off of his hand unimproved after the first draw, you gain anywhere from .5 to likely 1.5 but up to 5.5 or so big bets by taking his line from keeping JR around. What % of robs patting range is he really going to get in a raising war with here since he can never squeeze out JR, 20% or so? Can't stress enough how important the order of the action is here. If their seats were reversed a raising war here I'd say is as much as 3x more likely.