A rag or 98o?
 

In turbo online tournys and you're in a situation where you are forced to go all-in would you rather push w/ two rags or A rag? The idea behind the two rags of course being that the person that is going to call you could have A better and you are drawing to one out. Also with two rags, you are an underdog, but not by that much. The A rag idea is that the A high will give you the win in the long run over ATC.
What do you like to push on? I have reasons to side with both ideas, but in my experience I think that pushing w/ A rag is better just because if they dont have a pocket pair or A then I'm doing fine. I feel like its worth the amount of times that I'm dominated

Ideas? Comments?

Re: A rag or 98o?
 

what you are really talking about is the equity against peoples calling range.

you can just pokerstove it with different ranges and see how the hands match up

Re: A rag or 98o?
 

yea, but I'm curious about discussion through human insight about the situation. I'm interested in the "theory" and not the explicitly the "odds"

Re: A rag or 98o?
 

[ QUOTE ]

you can just pokerstove it with different ranges and see how the hands match up

[/ QUOTE ]
No, you can't. Suppose your opponent's calling range is just AA. When called, you are in significantly worse shape with Axo than with 98o. However, you are better off pushing with Axo against that opponent because you block half of the AA combinations, and so you will be called less frequently, 3 times out of 1225 instead of 6 times out of 1225. Losing 84% of your stack 3 times is better than losing 64% of your stack 6 times. This blocking effect is not reported by PokerStove.

As I recall, Axs does better than 76s against many plausible calling ranges when called. The blocking effect adds to this, making it even more clear to play Ax and hope you aren't dominated.

Re: A rag or 98o?
 

My read on this is that you are more likely dominated late in a tournament jamming ace rag vs. 2 live cards, as the most likely hand range includes big pairs and any ace better than yours. Have not done the math to see how ace rag holds up against a calling range of better ace x, vs. 89o vs. ace rag, but I sure know I've been busted out of many a tournament jamming ace rag into a better ace.

I've had better luck with the 89. (89 vs. ace 3 heads up, you are a 44% fav, ace 7 vs. ace 10 you are 24%) I take the 89

Re: A rag or 98o?
 

depends on what position you're pushing from and what their calling ranges are (if you have any reads).

Re: A rag or 98o?
 

[ QUOTE ]

I've had better luck with the 89.

[/ QUOTE ]
You'll need it.

[ QUOTE ]

(89 vs. ace 3 heads up, you are a 44% fav, ace 7 vs. ace 10 you are 24%) I take the 89

[/ QUOTE ]
If A3 is in your opponent's calling range, would you rather push with 89 or A7? That you might get lucky with 98o and you might get unlucky with A7 is not a rational argument against the ugly but stronger A7 hand.

Re: A rag or 98o?
 

[ QUOTE ]
My read on this is that you are more likely dominated late in a tournament jamming ace rag vs. 2 live cards, as the most likely hand range includes big pairs and any ace better than yours. Have not done the math to see how ace rag holds up against a calling range of better ace x, vs. 89o vs. ace rag, but I sure know I've been busted out of many a tournament jamming ace rag into a better ace.

I've had better luck with the 89. (89 vs. ace 3 heads up, you are a 44% fav, ace 7 vs. ace 10 you are 24%) I take the 89

[/ QUOTE ]

Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
9d 8h 252629 14.75 1453302 84.87 6373 0.37 0.149
Ts Tc 1453302 84.87 252629 14.75 6373 0.37 0.851


Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ad 7h 487639 28.48 1220220 71.26 4445 0.26 0.286
Ts Tc 1220220 71.26 487639 28.48 4445 0.26 0.714

Re: A rag or 98o?
 

Basing your judgement on the jam-or-fold tables in Chen and Ankenman's "Mathematics of Poker" is perhaps not a bad thing to do. (These tables contain the optimal play of the heads-up jam-or-fold game.)

According to Chen and Ankenman's tables, for A2o it is better to push stacks up to 29.2 BB, whilst for 98o one should prefer jamming over folding for stacks only up to 20.5 BB. Higher A-rag hands (A3o, A4o etc.) all have even higher jamming power.

According to the same tables, a hand like T9o has equivalent jamming-strength as A3o (EV-positive up to stacks of 31.9 BB).

Re: A rag or 98o?
 

Remember with A2, while you're in worse shape than 98 if your opponents calls with 55, you're in better shape when your opponent calls with KK, KQ and similar hands.

People fear domination probably a bit too much: while you apparently have half as many outs, in reality your equity is about 3/4 what would be with "live cards", plus there's a smaller probability your opponent holds a dominating hand given you hold one of the cards.

Re: A rag or 98o?
 

I used a bad example, point was simple.

Throw out calling range with big pairs, they call your hopeing for miricle (which many sites do deliever).

I would rather have two live cards (89) than ace rag against a better ace.

Better example. (Just heads up, interested in PS calcs)
89 vs Ace 7 (i.e. split high cards)42%
89 vs. ace 10 (2 overs KQ/AQ)37%
Ace rag (assume 2 - 6) vs better ace (used ace 7 for calc)23%
ace rag vs. 2 KQ (2 overs)57%

I'm not calling a jam with 2 overs like kq (without more info), but I will with ace k/q, so have better odds, around 40% with 89, than a dominated ace 23%.

Keep jamming those weak aces. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: A rag or 98o?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Throw out calling range with big pairs, they call your hopeing for miricle (which many sites do deliever).


[/ QUOTE ]

You can't just arbitrarily ignore some hands that exist in a calling range. A2o has 28.65% equity against KK, 98o has 17.895%. This can't be ignored because both numbers are low - A2 clearly has greater equity against a hand that will show up when you push sometimes and will call.

Re: A rag or 98o?
 

[ QUOTE ]
depends on what position you're pushing from and what their calling ranges are (if you have any reads).

[/ QUOTE ]
qft

In early position with an M of 3-5 i will push 89o, but fold a-rag. In middle and late position i will push both.
If my M<3 then i will push both early.

Re: A rag or 98o?
 

[ QUOTE ]

I would rather have two live cards (89) than ace rag against a better ace.


[/ QUOTE ]
I would rather have money than a good-looking hand. A7 not only does better when called by most calling ranges, it also gets called less frequently since it blocks your opponent from holding many calling hands.

If you want to claim 98o is better, find situations and plausible calling ranges such that 98o is better. If you actually take the time to do the calculations right, you may come around to what just about everyone else is saying, and the conclusions of a past article, "The Myth of Suited Connectors," in the 2+2 Internet Magazine. You are asserting the myth is right contrary to the calculations. Come up with relevant calculations which support your side, or give up.

[ QUOTE ]
interested in PS calcs

[/ QUOTE ]
Then go to http://www.pokerstove.com and download it. It is free.

[ QUOTE ]

Ace rag (assume 2 - 6) vs better ace (used ace 7 for calc)23%

[/ QUOTE ]
That's not close to correct. Domination is generally less of a factor when the kickers are low, as there is a greater chance the kickers do not play. The range a2o-a6o wins 36% against A7s, and 38% against A7o. It wins 25% against AKs and 27% against AKo.

Your other figures are also wrong, although not as dramatically.

[ QUOTE ]

I'm not calling a jam with 2 overs like kq (without more info)


[/ QUOTE ]
There are many situations in which it is clearly right to call pushes with KQ, unless you have reads. I have often gotten called by KQ.

Re: A rag or 98o?
 

A-rag is much better than 89o in an all-in situation blind.

Check out the sections in No Limit Hold 'Em Theory and Practice on Sklansky-Chubukov numbers, and calling all-ins preflop. You'll see that A-rag fairs a lot better than 89o in these situations.

Re: A rag or 98o?
 

In a situation where It's growing likely I'll face one or more calls, my M is very low (lets say 3-4 or <), I'm out of the money, It's folded to me, I like 98. As decribed, your often (and properly) going to get called by any decent stack with any pair, any ace, any k-t or two face and better. Realize I'm probably making the move here with any two cards however, I'm glad to have a probable non-dominated hand that also has two overs to 1/2 or more of the likely calling pairs. You've also got 2 cards to a straight which would add greatly to your hopes against over pairs. The question is complex and leads to endless if-then scenarios. Without M's the question cannot be answered very accurately. In my presumed scenario (fits as possible with your OP) I'm figuring to be called by every ace. It seems like there are too many dominated hands if you assume every ace calls. Maybe I am a victim of worrying too much about domination?

Dave

Re: A rag or 98o?
 

[ QUOTE ]
In a situation where It's growing likely I'll face one or more calls, my M is very low (lets say 3-4 or <), I'm out of the money, It's folded to me, I like 98. As decribed, your often (and properly) going to get called by any decent stack with any pair, any ace, any k-t or two face and better.


[/ QUOTE ]
Against that range, 98o wins 37.3% when called.
Against that range, A7o wins 44.4% when called.
A7o is called less frequently.

I do not understand why people are going on and on about how much they like having two live cards. Why is that more important than money?

[ QUOTE ]

Without M's the question cannot be answered very accurately.


[/ QUOTE ]
This might be meaningful if you could point to some realistic M, and some resulting calling distribution, so that 98o would do better than A7o. Otherwise, it looks like you are stubbornly refusing to give up a faulty argument even after it has been shown to be wrong.

There are arguments for 98o. It does better than A7o in some multiway pots. However, for that to be relevant you have to expect to be called by multiple players a significant amount of the time, which means picking up the blinds is quite unlikely, and pushing with substandard hands is likely to be a bad idea.

By the way, there are much better strategies than pushing with any two in early position when your M is 3. It's a copout by people who don't want to be bothered by figuring out how to play well with a short stack, despite the fact that being short-stacked is a normal part of tournament poker, and that stack could easily represent more than a buy-in of equity.

Re: A rag or 98o?
 

"Kill Everyone" mentions calling hands vs. pushing hands. 89s will do better against overpairs than Ax will if the overpair is between A and x obviously. 89 vs and underpair is a coinflip as Ax vs an underpair is also a coinflip as long as x is greater than the pair.

If someone is likely to call more with pairs than high cards, I might slightly adjust from what would be suggested from HOH or Sklansky rankings. Ax being called also has the danger of being called by a higher Ax (only slightly less likely because even though holding an ace halves the number of combos from 6 to 3, in my opinion people are not going to lay down Ax in a high blind situation).

All-in-all, the initial question of 89s vs. Ax is not an easy one. What is x? Also pay structure, relative stack sizes, future play (how far you are from the blinds), your CSI (or how many orbits you can survive) and the calling ranges of other players set to act after you all matter. For this type of analysis, I like sit-n-go wizard a lot. They use the independent chip model to calculate the best equity play in push/fold calculations. The weaknesses in their analyses are 1.) They prune branches when there are 4 or more players in a hand, 2.) You cannot use anything other than Sklansky rankings for ranges, 3.) They do not consider future play (they do if you turn this option on, but it is not reliable IMO).

Re: A rag or 98o?
 

I highly recommend the jam/fold tables in MoP as well as the SNGPT program for those of you struggling here.

Re: A rag or 98o?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Come up with relevant calculations which support your side, or give up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here are a couple of points.
First of all, too many nits play tight and get blinded away waiting for big pairs, until their M is less than 5 and they jam the first ace-x they see. So, its better equity to be more aggressive with ATC and jam and prey no one calls. That being said, why wait for ace – x to jam, as the % increase is de minimus.
Let’s take the two jamming ranges, and compare them to 2 calling ranges.
A2-a7 vs. pairs 5s or better, and ANY combo of face cards (loose). This is a likely calling range for a larger (not massive) stack.
A7o-A2o vs. 55+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo 40.693%
98s, 87s, 76s, 98o, 87o, 76o is 33.863%

So ace rag is 7% better.

But let’s look at a more reasonable calling range, assume stacks are more even. Drop all face cards other than pairs 55+ and Ace – 10. Without more info, can’t assume jt-kq is standard calling ranges late in a tournament.
98s, 87s, 76s, 98o, 87o, 76o drops to 31.999%
BUT A2 – A7 drop to 27.967%, a 14% fall off

We are splitting hairs and can run a million scenarios, but your sanctimonious opinion that ace rag is a much better doesn’t pass muster.
My point in case, don’t be scared and wait to jam a dominated hand, where there is fold equity out there with ATC that are not as dominated, and from a percentage standpoint, a push.

Re: A rag or 98o?
 

[ QUOTE ]
First of all, too many nits play tight and get blinded away waiting for big pairs, until their M is less than 5 and they jam the first ace-x they see.

[/ QUOTE ]

No they really won't, nits are generally winners you know? Just not maximizing their profits, perhaps you are thinking of another term.

Jimbo

Re: A rag or 98o?
 

dim wits?

Re: A rag or 98o?
 

[ QUOTE ]
dim wits?

[/ QUOTE ]


LOL, I like it!! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Jimbo

Re: A rag or 98o?
 

[ QUOTE ]
But let’s look at a more reasonable calling range, assume stacks are more even. Drop all face cards other than pairs 55+ and Ace – 10. Without more info, can’t assume jt-kq is standard calling ranges late in a tournament.
98s, 87s, 76s, 98o, 87o, 76o drops to 31.999%
BUT A2 – A7 drop to 27.967%, a 14% fall off

We are splitting hairs and can run a million scenarios, but your sanctimonious opinion that ace rag is a much better doesn’t pass muster.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are all kinds of problems with your work here. Instead of being so hardheaded, take a second to consider what the other posters are trying to help you with.

First, your ranges aren't very realistic. In high blind spots some of those hands you eliminated from their range are going to be reasonable if not easy calls in a lot of situations. You think a short or large stack can't call a shortstack's shove with KQ?

Second, you haven't accounted for the fact that if you tighten your opponent's calling range, they aren't calling you as often (which means that you're picking up more pots uncontested). So, while they may have much more equity when they do call you, that will occur a smaller percentage of the time. I mean you could make their calling range AA only if you wanted to, and you'll be crushed when they call, but that will be so infrequently it will be rediculously +EV to push any ace against them. In fact, HU with an M of 5 you could push any 2.

Again, the j/f tables are a good start, and if you want to do some range calcs try out SNGPT, which is decent if you can estimate calling ranges and are up against several opponents. Just Pokerstoving range vs. range doesn't account for how often your opponent(s) will fold, and FE is pretty much the dominant consideration here.

Re: A rag or 98o?
 

Phzon, I'm not stubornly attached to this idea. Perhaps you misundstand. In fact I enjoy the first part of your responce showing the percentages (I presume) against my suggested calling range. You've got me thinking and that is why I participate here.

I clearly state the the if-then situation and say "folded" to me. That's not early pos, I'm eluding to mid to late with that remark.

I was not suggesting letting oneself get to an M of 3 was part of any strategy that should be employed. How you got there has little bearing on this question that I can figure out. I was just describing a hypathetical condition where I fugure the calling range for my opponents will be very wide. Yes that is how I'd play it there with an M of 3. Put that in your notes. However, the purpose of my post was not to venture off into end game commentary. I think that widens the discussion beyond the OP. Just setting the scene.

With respect,
Dave

Re: A rag or 98o?
 

The problem in pushing with A,rag is that if someone wakes us with a better ace they're gonna call you...now you're dominated. Whereas you push with 9,8 suited you more than likely have live cards with flush and straight possiblities.

Re: A rag or 98o?
 

If I understand Phzon's argument he's saying you get called often enough with less than Ace high hands that your equity is better with A7 than 98o.

Gonso says you can't use pokerstove to arrive at this conclusion because you can't take into acount folds.

I don't know but I am very interested. I lean towards 89o myself.

Dave

Re: A rag or 98o?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Gonso says you can't use pokerstove to arrive at this conclusion because you can't take into acount folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not quite what I said.

You can use Pokerstove to calculate your equity against a given range, but you must also account for the times you aren't called. For example, say it's folded to you on the SB and you push with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Then let's say that the BB will call you with the top 15% of hands according to Pokerstove.

Okay, your hand in this case will be about a 57-43 dog when called. However, since you will be called only 15% of the time, the other 85% percent of the time you simply take his BB and whatever antes are out there. This adds to the expectation of you shove, how much only depends on the amount of the antes, blinds, and stacks. If you just go by pokerstove range calcs alone, how do you account for all the free money you get when he folds?

Let's say in this case, you have t4k chips at a 9-handed table, and the BB has you covered. The blinds are 300/600 with 100 antes. After posting, you have t4600 left and the pot is t1,800. Now, if you have that A7s and shove (and he calls with that range above), 85% of the time you simply take in an t1,800 pot. When you are called, you'll have 43% equity in that t10,900 pot (on average), which is hardly a bad spot considering all the money already in the pot and your shortstack situation.

I'm harping on SNGPT here because it's a better tool for the job. You can put in ranges and it will account for the times they can't call, and the value of the blinds and antes. It will give you the EV of jamming various hands against various ranges and various opponents.

And phzon can speak for himself but it sounded like he was referring to card removal effects. That is, if you HAVE an ace, there are only three aces left for your opponents to have. So, you'll run into AK or AJ or whatever less often when you shove with A7.

Re: A rag or 98o?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The problem in pushing with A,rag is that if someone wakes us with a better ace they're gonna call you...now you're dominated. Whereas you push with 9,8 suited you more than likely have live cards with flush and straight possiblities.

[/ QUOTE ]

Being dominated sucks, but you have to consider the whole range and not just the better aces that will call you. AK and AQ are very much dominated by AA too, but that doesn't make it less playable than 98s in a jam/fold spot against a reasonable range of hands (that is, not just AA). Also, what happens when your 98 gets called by 99 or 88, or A9? That's part of a range that will call you and you're awfully dominated there.

There's a typo in my last post... you started with t5,100 chips, not t4,000. It's not really a big deal in the example but I know some nit's going to show up and remind me that I can't count.

But again, these are things you can calculate if you're able to put opponents on ranges (IF you can do it correctly), so it's not really a subjective thing as to which hand is better to push in a given scenario.

Re: A rag or 98o?
 

[ QUOTE ]
let's say that the BB will call you with the top 15% of hands according to Pokerstove.
... since you will be called only 15% of the time, the other 85% percent of the time you simply take his BB and whatever antes are out there.


[/ QUOTE ]
One of the points I made, in the discussion of "The Myth of Suited Connectors" and here, is that when your opponent calls with his top 15%, you get called less than 15% of the time when you have A7o, and more than 15% of the time when you push with 98o.

Since we were comparing A7o with 98o elsewhere in this thread, I'll analyze those, although it only has a tiny effect on the numebr of combinations, that there are 2 A7s combinations when you have A7o instead of 3 when you have A7s.

I'll use the PokerStove top 15.1% range, which is
77+ (48),
A7s+ (28),
K9s+ (16),
QTs+ (8),
JTs (4),
ATo+ (48),
KTo+ (36),
QJo (12).
That totals 200 out of 1326, or 15.1%.

When you have A7o,
77+ (42),
A7s+ (20),
K9s+ (16),
QTs+ (8),
JTs (4),
ATo+ (36),
KTo+ (36),
QJo (12).
That totals 174 out of 1225, or 14.2%.

When you have 98o,
77+ (42),
A7s+ (26),
K9s+ (15),
QTs+ (8),
JTs (4),
ATo+ (48),
KTo+ (36),
QJo (12).
That is 191 out of 1225, 15.6%.

So, in this case having A7o blocks about 9% of the calls you would get holding 98o.

Let's suppose you open-push from the SB with 10 big blinds against someone who covers you and who (mistakenly) uses this range to call in the BB. As a baseline, I'll use folding, so winning the blinds gains 1.5 BB, and having x% equity after getting called is worth -9.5BB + x% * 20 BB.

A7o is uncalled 85.8% of the time, and has 39.99% equity 14.2% of the time. That averages a gain of 1.07 BB. You get back your small blind and 57% of the big blind. You get knocked out 8.2% of the time when you push.

98o is uncalled 84.4% of the time, and has 32.45% equity 15.6% of the time. That averages a gain of 0.796 BB. You get back your small blind and 30% of the big blind. You get knocked out 10.5% of the time when you push.

Against someone who will fold that often, both hands are clear pushes, but you should much prefer having A7o.

Will this stop people from favoring 98o over A7o? No. Fools will defend to the death something they heard someone say in a bar once or that some celebrity babbled when a mathematician explains why it isn't so. Some people insist JTs is better than AA--look at how many more outs it has--even though AA doesn't need outs, and is about 10 times as profitable.

Re: A rag or 98o?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Come up with relevant calculations which support your side, or give up.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, too many nits play tight and get blinded away waiting for big pairs,


[/ QUOTE ]
Who cares? That's not something I have advocated, so why bring it up? That's not what we are talking about at all.

[ QUOTE ]
That being said, why wait for ace – x to jam, as the % increase is de minimus.

[/ QUOTE ]
No one said to wait for Ax to push when you are short-stacked. In fact, people are going too far in the opposite direction, saying they would panic and open-push any two cards, while pushing with 32o is massively -EV in many situations, such as when your M=2 and the big blind will call you with any two. The question is whether you would prefer to have a hand like 98o or a hand like A7o when you push, or, if one of those is marginal, is the other a clear fold or a clear push? The answer is that A7o is much stronger, and it is correct to push A7o at times when it is correct to fold 98o, and the reverse is almost never true. If you favor 98o over A7o, your intuition is wrong by a lot.

[ QUOTE ]

Let’s take the two jamming ranges, and compare them to 2 calling ranges.
A2-a7 vs. pairs 5s or better, and ANY combo of face cards (loose). This is a likely calling range for a larger (not massive) stack.
A7o-A2o vs. 55+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo 40.693%
98s, 87s, 76s, 98o, 87o, 76o is 33.863%

So ace rag is 7% better.


[/ QUOTE ]
A better way to look at it is that getting called with Axo is only about 57% as expensive as getting called with you have 98o. Again, you have overlooked that Axo will be called less frequently.

[ QUOTE ]
But let’s look at a more reasonable calling range, assume stacks are more even. Drop all face cards other than pairs 55+ and Ace – 10.


[/ QUOTE ]
That's not more reasonable at all. Most of the time, KQ preflop is about as strong as AJ, unless you assume someone has a range extremely heavily weighted toward Ax and not hands like KJ, KT, QJ, or QT. Yet you are using a range which throws away KQs but plays ATo. That appears to be designed to favor 98o over Axo.

[ QUOTE ]

98s, 87s, 76s, 98o, 87o, 76o drops to 31.999%
BUT A2 – A7 drop to 27.967%,


[/ QUOTE ]
I get different figures from Pokerstove.
76s-98s, 76o-98o against 55+, ATo+, ATs+ has 32.066% equity.
A2s-A7s, A2o-A7o against 55+ ATo+,ATs+ has 29.216% equity.

However, even in this contrived example, it is still better to push with A7o (29.0% when called) than with 98o (32.4% when called). That's because A7o gets called only 102/1225 ~ 8.3% of the time instead of 118/1225 ~ 9.6%. While A7o loses slightly more when called, getting called less frequently outweighs this (with stacks less than 12.7 BB) even against this contrived range. So even when you tried to stack the deck in favor of a connector, A7o was still slightly better. Against a more normal range, such as the first one you tried, A7o does much better than 98o.

In cash games, if you want to balance your 4-bets with AK, KK and AA with a few weaker hands, it is often better to add hands like A7s to your 4-betting range rather than 98s. A7s is very slightly worse when called by a range like QQ+, AQs+, AKo, but it blocks many of those hands, giving you a lot more folding equity, while 98s blocks nothing.

Re: A rag or 98o?
 

Pzhon has set forth enough calcs to convince anyone.

For those of you who think that there is something else beyond the calcs, in a way you are wrong. Pokerstove figures out what happens if called. Beyond fold equity, and anticipated ranges, there really isn't much to debate.

For those of you who are having a hard time swallowing the pokerstove numbers, i think you are missing the point on two factors.

1. You hold 25% of the Aces in the deck. And most of the deck ain't dealt. Thus your preoccupation with domination isn't justified. Yes, it sucks to be dominated. But it also sucks for you to hold 98o against 99 +, which i respectfully submit is a significant portion of the potential calling range.

2. That little A is an over to every pair but AA, including JJ, QQ and KK, the insta-calls.


So, having a [censored] M sucks. A7o is by no means a monster. But its a better jamming hand than 98o.

Re: A rag or 98o?
 

"89s will do better against overpairs than Ax will if the overpair is between A and x obviously."

Huh? This can't be right. The ace wins more often vs a high pair rather than low suited connectors.

Re: A rag or 98o?
 

Pzhon and gonzo, thanks for the layout accounting for the fold equity and including how the card removal effect affects the math. It was very helpful.

My argument was a little off base and not articulated well (what a surprise). I wasn't arguing "which one do you prefer", but more that as play tightens, the more likely some of the top 15% hands like QJ start to drop out (yes, I should of kept KQ in my analysis), increasing the likelihood that an ace -7 is dominated and thus no better than 89.

I still stand by my point that a situational analysis should be incorporated in your jamming decision, and should be equally if not more inclined to jam a connector if the calling range of the folks to your left has become super tight for the fold equity alone, as both hands stink if called.

btw, the last time i was in a bar 2 guys were aurguing that hot water freezes into ice cubes faster than cold water not 89 vs a7.

Re: A rag or 98o?
 

[ QUOTE ]
btw, the last time i was in a bar 2 guys were aurguing that hot water freezes into ice cubes faster than cold water not 89 vs a7.


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Hope you bet on the guy that said hot water freezes faster. He was correct (Mpemba effect), just like Pzhon.

Jimbo

Re: A rag or 98o?
 

Gonso and Phzon, I really appreaciate the effort you put into your answers and the clairifications. I'll download that software and try to become as expert with it. I can see it could help clear up many things.

Dave