Re: PNL Study Group Day 2: Stack Sizes
 

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In any case, even when we are faced with extremely bad players we need to adjust properly. If we make -EV plays even the fact that our opponent is bad won't help us.



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The whole post was great but I think this is the best part.

I used to play like the one who would call/raise with 88 in that situation, but now I can find a fold there. You don't need to force yourself into a marginal spot when all it takes is one hand where you CB with TPGK and they shove with a 2nd pair SC or a draw. I've handled so many more shorties lately by picking better spots.

Re: PNL Study Group Day 2: Stack Sizes
 

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As far as bankroll management goes, if I decide to sit with a 50BB stack, would it be ok to jump up to the next highest game?

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hm, bankroll management discussion is tricky. here are my thoughts, but I'll give fair warning that this is just an inkling and has not been mathematically verified.

Playing a $100 stack in a $1-$2 game will still be lower variance than playing a larger stack in a $1-$2 game.

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I think you can verify it with the Kelly Criterion.

Assume Player A buys in for 60xBB in a 5-10 NL game, and wins +1500 in his winning sessions and loses -800 in his losing sessions. He wins 55% of his sessions, in part because he doesn't chase his losers. So he doesn't dig himself out of a hole that often.

Kelly would say he gives 1500:800 or 1.88:1 odds to himself every time he sits down. And he wins 55% of his gambles. So, 1.88*55 - 45 / 1.88 = 31.1%. His average loss (ie the amount he risks when he sits down) should be 31.1% under Kelly. So, bankroll = $2572.

Player B buys in for 1500 in the 5-10 game. His average win is +3500, but he chases losers to get even and sometimes sustains large losses. His average loss is -2500. He wins 60% of sessions. He gives himself 1.4:1 odds. 1.4x60 - 40 / 1.4 = 31.4%. So, 2500 = 31.4% of bankroll, or bankroll = $7962.

Of course, full Kelly has 13.5% risk of ruin if you don't drop down in levels. If you are unwilling to go to smaller games, better to operate at quarter Kelly, with 0.03% risk of ruin.

Player A quarter Kelly bankroll = 10,288
Player B = 31,848

Player B wins more often than Player A (60% to 55%), and the difference between Player B's winning and losing sessions is greater ($1000 to $700). Over time, Player B rates to win more money.

But Player B needs a bigger bankroll because of the bigger variance. More succinctly, he simply risks more on each gamble, which in turn impacts the odds he gives himself every time he sits down.

Re: PNL Study Group Day 2: Stack Sizes
 

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Stack sizes also influence our post-flop play. If we raise a good hand pre-flop and only a short stack calls us it can frequently be wrong to cbet if we miss. This is because we would put so much money in the pot by cbetting that we cross the commitment threshold. This is a very common leak even among otherwise solid aggressive players.


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This is almost exactly the situation I was thinking about in my post. C-bet here and you'll get yourself in a sticky situation way too often.

Ret

Re: PNL Study Group Day 2: Stack Sizes
 

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Stack sizes also influence our post-flop play. If we raise a good hand pre-flop and only a short stack calls us it can frequently be wrong to cbet if we miss. This is because we would put so much money in the pot by cbetting that we cross the commitment threshold. This is a very common leak even among otherwise solid aggressive players.


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This is almost exactly the situation I was thinking about in my post. C-bet here and you'll get yourself in a sticky situation way too often.

Ret

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I agree. However, I think the statement isn't complete without considering the exception that if you are playing against a weak player a pure bluff can be fine as they will often fold - which will be a huge mistake on their part.

It's situational, of course, but I think a lot will just fire the c-bet with disregard to the stack sizes and the mistake they may be making if this is a habit of folding with 1/3 of the stacks in.

Re: PNL Study Group Day 2: Stack Sizes
 

Hello everbody

After reading the great book I think the best stack for me is 50BB, I play on PP NL100-200. With the stack of 50BB I play high card's and PP. In the book I can read how much I would raise with high-PP, with high-Cards and with low-PP. But I don't now, which cards I play in Early, Middle and Late-Position. With the low-PP I'm looking for a set, so I want a huigh SPR, should I limp with the low-PP in Early-Position or should I play this low-PP only in Late Position after a few limper's.
Can you give me a guide which card's is to play in which position with a 50BB-Stack?

Thank you very much
Bauertson

Re: PNL Study Group Day 2: Stack Sizes
 

SB: $61.30
Hero (BB): $68.85
UTG: $16.50
MP: $53.55
CO: $41.95
BTN: $20.00

Preflop: Hero is dealt 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 Players)
3 folds, <font color="red">BTN raises to $1.75</font>, SB folds, Hero folds

I assume it's $0.25/$0.50.
We as the big blind have to pay only $1.25 to win a possible 20.75$ (pot+his stack).
That looks a lot more than 10:1 we might need with our PP.
If he will always cbet like 2/3 of the pot we will get at least 0.25+0.50+1.75 + 2/3*(0.25+0.50+1.75+1.25) = $5 for our $1.25 when we hit our set (even if he stops betting after the flop and folds to any, even the smallest bet or raise on flop, turn and river).

Looks like a clear call to me.
Any other opinions?

Re: PNL Study Group Day 2: Stack Sizes
 

Triggerle your posts are awesome.

Re: PNL Study Group Day 2: Stack Sizes
 

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Can you give me a guide which card's is to play in which position with a 50BB-Stack?

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sure but it's so controversial. everyone has a different game or different ideas about their game.

here's the executive summary: if you won't be stealing say 20%+ of the time (that's aballpark), you should only play the first-tier commitment hands: pairs, AK, AQ and the margin hands AJ/KQ. once you have late position and stealing the blinds comes more into play (as well as c-betting your first-in raises), you now have "steal equity" and so can expand the range.

if you can take down the pot a lot stealing with c-bets, you can expand your positional range to include all sorts of hands. however, do NOT overdo it against thinking opponents. all they have to do is reraise you or checkraise bluff the flop and your "steal equity" goes down the tubes. so you should still play tight in late position, but you can add in suited connectors, suited one-gappers, connectors, a few extra big-card hands.

matt

Re: PNL Study Group Day 2: Stack Sizes
 

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SB: $61.30
Hero (BB): $68.85
UTG: $16.50
MP: $53.55
CO: $41.95
BTN: $20.00

Preflop: Hero is dealt 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 Players)
3 folds, <font color="red">BTN raises to $1.75</font>, SB folds, Hero folds

I assume it's $0.25/$0.50.
We as the big blind have to pay only $1.25 to win a possible 20.75$ (pot+his stack).
That looks a lot more than 10:1 we might need with our PP.
If he will always cbet like 2/3 of the pot we will get at least 0.25+0.50+1.75 + 2/3*(0.25+0.50+1.75+1.25) = $5 for our $1.25 when we hit our set (even if he stops betting after the flop and folds to any, even the smallest bet or raise on flop, turn and river).

Looks like a clear call to me.
Any other opinions?

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if you won't be stealing and will check-fold most flops you don't have enough equity to call.

Re: PNL Study Group Day 2: Stack Sizes
 

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SB: $61.30
Hero (BB): $68.85
UTG: $16.50
MP: $53.55
CO: $41.95
BTN: $20.00

Preflop: Hero is dealt 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 Players)
3 folds, <font color="red">BTN raises to $1.75</font>, SB folds, Hero folds

I assume it's $0.25/$0.50.
We as the big blind have to pay only $1.25 to win a possible 20.75$ (pot+his stack).
That looks a lot more than 10:1 we might need with our PP.
If he will always cbet like 2/3 of the pot we will get at least 0.25+0.50+1.75 + 2/3*(0.25+0.50+1.75+1.25) = $5 for our $1.25 when we hit our set (even if he stops betting after the flop and folds to any, even the smallest bet or raise on flop, turn and river).

Looks like a clear call to me.
Any other opinions?

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While I agree that the math sounds good for a call, you have to keep in mind that you will typically need to flop a set when they flop at least TPTK in order to win their entire stack. Most of the time, you're going to win a lot less than their stack when you flop a set.