Stud8 - Is this Collusion?
 

Maybe a little LC, I don't know, but this play pissed me off and it feels like the guys I am in the hand with are cooperating. What is happening here?

7 Card Stud High-Low ($3/$6), Ante $0,50, Bring-In $1 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.00 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 4: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___completes

4th Street - (4.00 SB)

Seat 3: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (3.50 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets___raises
Seat 7: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___raises___calls
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___folds

6th Street - (9.50 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 7: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___calls

River - (11.50 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___bets
Seat 7: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___checks___calls

Total pot: (13.50 BB - $81)

Results (in white):<font color="white">

Total pot $81 | Rake $3

Note: this site shuffles the hole cards.

Seat 7: [Qh 7d 4s 4h 2h 6d 3c] - HI: a pair of Fours; LO: 7,6,4,3,2

</font>

Re: Stud8 - Is this Collusion?
 

Cooperative betting strategy in a three way pot is an element of good poker, not collusion. Even so, this was just a normal c/r on Five to eliminate a better high hand. Normal.

Re: Stud8 - Is this Collusion?
 

Scared of sounding stupid, I have to say I've never seen this play before. Can you explain why this play is actually good for him... So he feels his 2743 is a good enough low draw that he must call down against a 235 board? I find this a little sketchy, and I probably find a fold better for him. Anyway, he puts me accurately on a pair of aces and figures that he wants to make his 44 good for high so he pays two extra bets to draw pretty thin against a good board?

I just don't see how this play helps him.

How can I tell that this is the type of play he is doing in this hand? Would you have called here?

Re: Stud8 - Is this Collusion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Cooperative betting strategy in a three way pot is an element of good poker, not collusion.

[/ QUOTE ]I think you need to look up the definition of "collusion", because that is it.

Thing is, especially in split-pot games, the best non-cooperative strategies are going to be equivivalent to the collusive strategies.

So raising here is fine, *if* it's done simply trying to max individual expectation without any agreement. If on the other hand they signaled, or had some sort of agreement about how to play these hands, that would be cheating.

[ QUOTE ]
Even so, this was just a normal c/r on Five to eliminate a better high hand. Normal.

[/ QUOTE ]Agreed.

Re: Stud8 - Is this Collusion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Scared of sounding stupid, I have to say I've never seen this play before. Can you explain why this play is actually good for him... So he feels his 2743 is a good enough low draw that he must call down against a 235 board?

[/ QUOTE ]The point is that he's mostly in pretty good shape if you fold, but in terrible shape no matter what if you stick around.

It's a little doubtful that he has enough to isolate, but it's far better than calling in pretty much any scenario.

And no, you can't really tell that he's doing this sort of play since he would play two pair or trips the same way. In which case you're completely destroyed.

Thinking about it, with your dead outs and the huge downside of him having a better high hand folding seems best. Possibly you're better off 3-betting, but the pot seems to small to warrant getting free-rolled for 2-3 streets.

Re: Stud8 - Is this Collusion?
 

When I use the term "cooperative betting," I mean making a play because your play allows another player in position to make a play that will increase your expectation. Getting a draw in the middle for multiple raises is one example, but betting so the next player can raise and face the field with two bets is another.

In stud, I often bet into a probable better hand if the better hand is likely to raise and force draws behind him to fold. I'm not betting because my hand is best, but because my opponent and I both figure to do better if the pot is heads-up.

In the hand above, the c/r villain has a pair and a low draw, and his 4s block straights for the other villain, with whom he would like to contest the whole pot. When V1 bets, it might very well be with the expectation V2 will raise, and since Hero has no scoop potential, he is forced to fold a better high hand, conceding half the pot to one of the villains, who now get to fight over the whole pot instead of just the low half. This looks pretty normal to me.

If this were actual collusion, I would expect one of them to just fold the pot to the other once it was heads-up. In a live game this is less likely because it arouses suspicion and villains can just combine their bankrolls in the car on the way home. Online, it's not that easy.

Re: Stud8 - Is this Collusion?
 

During the course of this hand when he makes the check raise on 5th street, you may have to consider that he has trip 4's and was waiting until it was a full bet to get max value. I actually like his raise in this spot because you showed weakness on 5th with your check and he is figuring if you checked you are not calling 2 bets. He then has a decent low draw and is probably in front for high. I don't see any collusion in this at all.

Re: Stud8 - Is this Collusion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, he puts me accurately on a pair of aces and figures that he wants to make his 44 good for high so he pays two extra bets to draw pretty thin against a good board?


[/ QUOTE ]

Possibly. But if he has you on three low cards and two bricks, this is his chance to promote his 44 before you have a chance to pair you ace or brick.

As electrical says, all hi-lo games have this tactical element of ad-hoc implied collusion to build pots and/or to promote hands. These partnerships change from hand to hand. Nothing is more annoying than to be in a hi-lo pot when your implied partner doesn't understand his role. (Studying these partnerships and failed partnerships is highly profitable. Learn to see them coming.)

He made a good play.

Re: Stud8 - Is this Collusion?
 

Why do you guys think I don't understand the point of cooperative betting? I'm just saying I have a hard time finding this play more profitable for him than a fold. I think he did not make a good play, he reduced both mine and his own profitability.

Re: Stud8 - Is this Collusion?
 

I have a hard time understanding why you seem so incredulous about players making what appear to you to be aggressive, non-good plays. If you've never been raised off the best hand before, then you're probably a calling station.

Re: Stud8 - Is this Collusion?
 

Let me guess Pokerstars or Full Tilt?
(seems like same random generator with different skin)

Basically you have two Donks in the hand - collusion nope.

Word to the wise play close attention to hands played previously especially at Pokerstars where miracles happen and alot of Bingo/Slot Machine players are playing lately in SHL.

The guy with 44 is a Fish who more than likely plays every hand and this is obvious by his starters Q74 all off - not that suited would have been a real imrpovement (this Twit called on third in first position and calls a raise from behind!), if he were a real player and had a real low hand or hidden pocket pair, he would have bet the 44 on turn - predicting that you would raise if you had aces or fold if you had a low that bricked - thus putting pressure on BI to fold or react in any event.

Also if BI had anything he would have raised your bet on 4th to put pressure on the 44 and to find out if you are bluffing aces with a broken low draw.

So now you know they have NOTHING.

So on fifth - the check seems fine given boards but I would be suspicious of Donk 1 and Donk 2 - Seriously if you're BI would you check call a wheel draw (or any low) when you have two callers who on the surface either bricked or have high draws? Please! He's on a freeroll if you two are on high draws.

Though dicey - I might put a bet out on 5th to see what happens - you have been driving the betting and your door cards resemble a Broadway - semi-bluff equity in action.

In this situation, you really needed to know how these two play - now you know.

Also it seems a lot of the Donky Bingo players then try to steal with their boards when they haven't invested any bluff equity into it.

Now that you are out of the way he check-raises the BI to see if he is bluffing - his first real poker move of the hand and you are behind him now unable to call two bets with naked aces - I think he knows this - so perhaps not so Donkish but given starters yes.

So you bounce, and surprise surprise Mr. Q74 hits his Pokerstar miracle - the BI may have had a low (you didn't show his hand) that was rivered by the guy who shouldn't have been in the hand in the first place.

So collusion no - just Pokerstar Bingo at it's finest.

That's my 2 cents.

[img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Stud8 - Is this Collusion?
 

Seat 7 started with (73)4 and hit the Q on the river. Then the site shuffled his cards at showdown and it looked like he started with (Q7)4.

Lots of players don't play a 4-low aggressively. You can't discount a made low on 5th.

Seat 7's most probable hand is precisely 44 + a 4-low. The next one is two pair. He's not betting out because he wants to knock hero out and cut down competition for high, but don't want to put in 3 bets against the probable made low.

BI doesn't need to have a wheel draw to destroy aces here. He just needs a made low. Any will do. And if he's the least bit passive his play is very consistent with exactly that.

Betting 5th is disastrous. Even if you by luck are up against two paired lowdraws you're still in a world of pain. It's a checkfold, period.

The bring-ins hand wasn't shown because this is Full Tilt and they don't show losing hands. His hand probalby was 86, 83 or 82 though. There's just a very small range of hands for his hole cards to begin with, given that he was scooped, and that's even smaller if we want them to be a little bit consistent with his betting.

Any other low hole cards and he would have had a better low, any pair and he would've beat the pair of fours. It's pretty unlikely he went haywire with a busted flushdraw. Any straightdraws would've taken at least half the pot.

Bluff equity isn't something you invest, it's the extra part of the pot you get when someone folds a better hand.

Re: Stud8 - Is this Collusion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Seat 7 started with (73)4 and hit the Q on the river. Then the site shuffled his cards at showdown and it looked like he started with (Q7)4.

[/ QUOTE ]

So Full Tilt it is then... hate that they do this - makes hand history useless.

Ah.... that makes more sense for starters. Because his fifth street bet didn't make sense with a Q starter. I still think it's odd that he check raises at this point and isolates with a pair of 4s.

So still think that they are not colluding just newbie players. 44s raise should have been on 4th and not fifth with the wheel board out.

Re: Stud8 - Is this Collusion?
 

[ QUOTE ]

So Full Tilt it is then... hate that they do this - makes hand history useless.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hardly. Personally, I don't like the non-shuffled hole cards on Stars. It encourages people to play better, and it exposes me as a fraud.

Re: Stud8 - Is this Collusion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Scared of sounding stupid, I have to say I've never seen this play before. Can you explain why this play is actually good for him... So he feels his 2743 is a good enough low draw that he must call down against a 235 board? I find this a little sketchy, and I probably find a fold better for him. Anyway, he puts me accurately on a pair of aces and figures that he wants to make his 44 good for high so he pays two extra bets to draw pretty thin against a good board?

I just don't see how this play helps him.

How can I tell that this is the type of play he is doing in this hand? Would you have called here?

[/ QUOTE ]


You're exaggerating how good a board of 235 rainbow on 5th is, especially with low limit players who play any razz hand on 3rd.

Add to that that a lot of people raise most of their low draws on 4th and the 44 guy could be a favorite over 235's distribution here.

Re: Stud8 - Is this Collusion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think he did not make a good play, he reduced both mine and his own profitability.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how he reduced two profitabilities. It's a zero sum game, isn't it?

Re: Stud8 - Is this Collusion?
 

There are 3 players in the hand ...

Re: Stud8 - Is this Collusion?
 

The guy with 37244 had a good hand on 5th street and it was a good play to jam. These guys don't know you have split aces. It is likely you have a ace with a concealed pair, or maybe a 3-card low that bricked out. Whatever you have, it is hard for you to continue with your board against their boards.

The fold is OK, but you could also have just called them down. Problem is you are playing for half the pot and they both can scoop.

Re: Stud8 - Is this Collusion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
There are 3 players in the hand ...

[/ QUOTE ]

You're saying that Player 7 is taking his money and your money and giving it to Player 3? I don't get it...

Edit: If Player 3 has a wheel, Player 7 cost him 3BBs.