Calldown in a reraised pot, 25/50 live v. a capable bluffer
 

Villain in the hand is a known live cash game pro (in the ac/foxwoods, and nyc games at least). He makes very good laydowns and puts a lot of pressure on people but sometimes he makes reckless plays that seem like value bluffs. I played one hand with him recently where I raised preflop to 600 with JJ from ep, got 5 callers, including villain on btn. I check-call his 2500 bet on a 1095hh board, and check call his ai on a 6 non-heart turn 10kish and K10o is no good. He certainly is capable of big bluffs. He probably views me as a solid player. It should be noted that we are playing 72o for 500 and I have seen him win once when he reraised preflop to 2500 and took it down with 72o. I had a read on him that he was 72ing and actually told the player next to me that he had 72 after he reraised and we made a 100 bet, which I won (still lost 400 though).

Blinds 25/50, I am sitting on 16k, I make it 300 to go with 88 from EP, get one caller, and he makes it 1600 from the blinds very quickly. I decide to call. I am calling in part because I have position, in part because I think I might have the best hand, and in part because I don't want him to constantly reraise me preflop.

Flop comes K45ss. I have the 8s. He bets 3k and I call. I am basically just hoping to show the hand down at this point. Turn comes 7, non spade, giving me a gutter. He asks me how much I have left, I tell him approx 11k. He very quickly bets out 10k in two stacks of 1k chips. Call/shove all in? I very much doubt he would make this bet with 99-QQ, meaning his range is more polarized towards AK/spades/bluff type hands. His mannerisms and tempo to me suggested someone trying to push me off the pot.

Is calling absolutely horrendous here?
dlpnyc21

Re: Calldown in a reraised pot, 25/50 live v. a capable bluffer
 

I think I fold.

In the first hand, you said that he makes reckless plays that could be value bluffs, so shoving a hand like 99-QQ would seem to fall into this caregory here and fall into line with how he played the KT in the first hand.

Couldn't he have those mannerisms about pushing you off the hand if he something weak like K9o or any hand that he felt might be ahead but didn't want to get drawn out on?

Calling here is probably a waste of money.

Re: Calldown in a reraised pot, 25/50 live v. a capable bluffer
 

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I think I fold.

In the first hand, you said that he makes reckless plays that could be value bluffs, so shoving a hand like 99-QQ would seem to fall into this caregory here and fall into line with how he played the KT in the first hand.

Couldn't he have those mannerisms about pushing you off the hand if he something weak like K9o or any hand that he felt might be ahead but didn't want to get drawn out on?

Calling here is probably a waste of money.

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k9o would be way more likely than 99-qq here, only because I could easily have a king or a draw (I know this is sick logic, but I actually think it's true). I feel I can safely rule out 99-qq fwiw...

Re: Calldown in a reraised pot, 25/50 live v. a capable bluffer
 

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k9o would be way more likely than 99-qq here, only because I could easily have a king or a draw (I know this is sick logic, but I actually think it's true). I feel I can safely rule out 99-qq fwiw...

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I don't think it ultimately makes a lot of difference. This is easily a scared K not liking other options (b/f, c/f, c/c) and just blindly shoving.

Re: Calldown in a reraised pot, 25/50 live v. a capable bluffer
 

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I think I fold.

In the first hand, you said that he makes reckless plays that could be value bluffs, so shoving a hand like 99-QQ would seem to fall into this caregory here and fall into line with how he played the KT in the first hand.

Couldn't he have those mannerisms about pushing you off the hand if he something weak like K9o or any hand that he felt might be ahead but didn't want to get drawn out on?

Calling here is probably a waste of money.

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k9o would be way more likely than 99-qq here, only because I could easily have a king or a draw (I know this is sick logic, but I actually think it's true). I feel I can safely rule out 99-qq fwiw...

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I actually don't think you can b/c he could've had one of those hands pre-flop and when you just call the the flop realized that you can't be that strong and he can get you to lay down your K even if you have one. In my experience, given your guys' dynamic and all, I stare at AA/KK here like every [censored] time when I make the call, so I'd let it go.

Kirk

PS. What I'm trying to say is that besides the obvious hands you can't beat, he's also good enough to turn QQ/JJ into a bluff, and he would be bluffing with the best hand here.

Re: Calldown in a reraised pot, 25/50 live v. a capable bluffer
 

Calling the turn is probably not as bad as calling preflop or on the flop but I think this is a fold at every decision point. Playing guessing games for 300BB with 88 is not the way to beat overaggressive but smart players.

Edit: Obviously if you have a specific physical read or read on the situation/tempo/metagame/whatever that makes this situation different from a general situation against a generic very aggressive winner, do whatever your read calls for. But insofar as this situation can be discussed, calling down with 88 is a bad plan.

Re: Calldown in a reraised pot, 25/50 live v. a capable bluffer
 

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I think I fold.

In the first hand, you said that he makes reckless plays that could be value bluffs, so shoving a hand like 99-QQ would seem to fall into this caregory here and fall into line with how he played the KT in the first hand.

Couldn't he have those mannerisms about pushing you off the hand if he something weak like K9o or any hand that he felt might be ahead but didn't want to get drawn out on?

Calling here is probably a waste of money.

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k9o would be way more likely than 99-qq here, only because I could easily have a king or a draw (I know this is sick logic, but I actually think it's true). I feel I can safely rule out 99-qq fwiw...

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I actually don't think you can b/c he could've had one of those hands pre-flop and when you just call the the flop realized that you can't be that strong and he can get you to lay down your K even if you have one. In my experience, given your guys' dynamic and all, I stare at AA/KK here like every [censored] time when I make the call, so I'd let it go.

Kirk

PS. What I'm trying to say is that besides the obvious hands you can't beat, he's also good enough to turn QQ/JJ into a bluff, and he would be bluffing with the best hand here.

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HUH??? there is no way in hell i am folding a K here and villain knows this--doesn't this further polarize his range?

Re: Calldown in a reraised pot, 25/50 live v. a capable bluffer
 

Wow seriously? You stack off with any K in this spot? lol that's nuts. But if he knows that it just makes it a super easy fold, no?

Kirk

Re: Calldown in a reraised pot, 25/50 live v. a capable bluffer
 

i think calling is ok against the villian u describe, but by raising to 6xBB preflop u put urself in an ugly spot. i prefer either limping or making it 3xBB, this makes the hand much easier to play

Re: Calldown in a reraised pot, 25/50 live v. a capable bluffer
 

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Wow seriously? You stack off with any K in this spot? lol that's nuts. But if he knows that it just makes it a super easy fold, no?

Kirk

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my preflop range for calling with Kx is probably x>/=J, so yes, I stack off with any king here. But I can call the flop with a MUCH wider range than Kx, ie, any middle pair, any FD, so villain can conceivably bluff me off those hands. I can guarantee if he thought I had a king he would never try to bluff me off it.

Re: Calldown in a reraised pot, 25/50 live v. a capable bluffer
 

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i think calling is ok against the villian u describe, but by raising to 6xBB preflop u put urself in an ugly spot. i prefer either limping or making it 3xBB, this makes the hand much easier to play

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this is an excellent post. thanks.

Re: Calldown in a reraised pot, 25/50 live v. a capable bluffer
 

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i think calling is ok against the villian u describe, but by raising to 6xBB preflop u put urself in an ugly spot. i prefer either limping or making it 3xBB, this makes the hand much easier to play

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this is an excellent post. thanks.

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I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not, especially after the Ansky incident [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Calldown in a reraised pot, 25/50 live v. a capable bluffer
 

Almost every time I call here, I just sit there and wonder wtf just happened.

Re: Calldown in a reraised pot, 25/50 live v. a capable bluffer
 

Sarcasm all day.

Re: Calldown in a reraised pot, 25/50 live v. a capable bluffer
 

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i think calling is ok against the villian u describe, but by raising to 6xBB preflop u put urself in an ugly spot. i prefer either limping or making it 3xBB, this makes the hand much easier to play

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this is an excellent post. thanks.

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I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not, especially after the Ansky incident [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

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not sarcasm at all...it's a weird thing in deepstack live games like this--what chaos might/might not realize is that if i raise to 3xbb i will get called by nearly everyone, 5-6xbb raises are far more standard, but yet, if I raise to 3xbb and get called by nearly everyone it's actually quite a good result for my hand. i think 3xbb or limping is by far better with my stack--if i was sitting on 50kish it would be an easier 6xbb raise.

Re: Calldown in a reraised pot, 25/50 live v. a capable bluffer
 

You said his range is polar i.e- K+/air. A few questions then that will help me understand this spot.

How often do you just flat call with a set in similar reraised situations as opposed to just calling with middling pairs, straight draws in this type of reraised situation?

Follow up question. To what extent does villain perceive your tendencies. I think if he has a strong grasp of where your sitting this is a fold (unless of course you can deduce from his mannerism's otherwise). I do hesitate to say clear fold though because I cannot enumerate the weight of your physical tells to my mental picture of your EV in this situation. For what its worth I love calling in neutral EV situations here, but I sometimes analyze poker to massage my ego.

Final question and this is for all the community. In your opinion, how often do overpot bets equal= air, value bets, semi-bluffs? In my live game (2-5) overbets such as these tend to be strongish made hands that are worried about being outplayed, obviously this may have no bearing on hero's position but I believe would be interesting to hear others perspectives.

Re: Calldown in a reraised pot, 25/50 live v. a capable bluffer
 

Does anyone else think its worth analyzing why he bet 10k and not 11k even though he asked for a count?

Re: Calldown in a reraised pot, 25/50 live v. a capable bluffer
 

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Almost every time I call here, I just sit there and wonder wtf just happened.

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exactly what i was thinking, couldn't have said it better myself

Re: Calldown in a reraised pot, 25/50 live v. a capable bluffer
 

I actually think preflop bet sizing is a huge consideration in a game like this that I definitely don't think about enough when I play live. Raising so big with a midpocket seems like it's going to put you in tons of awkward spots. Raising to 200 seems like it might protect against a bunch of limpers and someone making some ridiculous raise in LP. Depending on how the game is playing, I like limping or a small raise pre.

Also, preflop, do you 4 bet with AA, KK or QQ here? How about AK? With these stack sizes, I might consider making it 5.5k or so because calling with 88 gives you so many flops that become terrible to play.

Given your reads and the board, I'm getting my money in. It would suck if he had 99.

Re: Calldown in a reraised pot, 25/50 live v. a capable bluffer
 

if he knows you stack off with any King, then I think this is a fold. my guess is he has two aces. Almost any pro here has AK, KK, or AA every time... the quick action is usually a reverse tell trying to make you think they are bluffing. I see pros do that all the time live. Unless you know otherwise... INTO THE MUCK!!!
I personally think you should have folded the flop, and given the size of his reraise preflop as well fwiw. I think 20k is minimum to make this call preflop, esp. since it looks like he stacks off with AA if you flop a set. Calling 1300 more is on the thin side with 1600, especially if you include air in his range (ie he doesnt stack off).

Re: Calldown in a reraised pot, 25/50 live v. a capable bluffer
 

Doesn't this come into play;

Board: Ks 4c 7d 5s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 71.124% 70.73% 00.39% 32212 178.00 { 8d8s }
Hand 1: 28.876% 28.48% 00.39% 12972 178.00 { random }

Re: Calldown in a reraised pot, 25/50 live v. a capable bluffer
 

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if he knows you stack off with any King, then I think this is a fold. my guess is he has two aces. Almost any pro here has AK, KK, or AA every time... the quick action is usually a reverse tell trying to make you think they are bluffing. I see pros do that all the time live. Unless you know otherwise... INTO THE MUCK!!!
I personally think you should have folded the flop, and given the size of his reraise preflop as well fwiw. I think 20k is minimum to make this call preflop, esp. since it looks like he stacks off with AA if you flop a set. Calling 1300 more is on the thin side with 1600, especially if you include air in his range (ie he doesnt stack off).

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almost everything you have said in each of your last few posts responding to dlp's threads is entirely wrong with respect to these nyc games and nyc pros.
i fold here (but probably don't call the flop if i don't intend to call on a turn like this, because you can't expect to see the showdown without facing at least one more big bet)