2 interesting $400 PLO8 hands
 

I was browsing the archive and feeling nostalgic for good PLO8 posts... maybe these will spur something.

I'm not interested in pre-flop comments. aggressor in both hands is "THEOLDLION", i don't have experience against him.

9 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
Hero (<font color="#0000cc">$844.80</font>)
UTG+1 (<font color="#0000cc">$968.80</font>)
MP1 (<font color="#0000cc">$167.40</font>)
MP2 (<font color="#0000cc">$742.80</font>)
MP3 (<font color="#0000cc">$387.10</font>)
CO (<font color="#0000cc">$855.60</font>)
BTN (<font color="#0000cc">$158.10</font>)
SB (<font color="#0000cc">$376.00</font>)
BB (<font color="#0000cc">$234.30</font>)
[UTG+1 posted $2]
[UTG+1 posted $4]

Pre-flop: ($12, 9 players) Hero is UTG T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero calls $4, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#777777">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls $4, <font color="#777777">1 fold</font>, CO calls $4, <font color="#cc0000">BTN raises to $32</font>, <font color="#777777">2 folds</font>, Hero calls $28, <font color="#777777">UTG+1 folds</font>, MP2 calls $28, <font color="#777777">CO folds</font>

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($112, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $112</font>, <font color="#cc0000">MP2 raises to $448</font>, <font color="#777777">1 fold</font>, <font color="#0000cc">[b], hero???

FullTiltPoker
8 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG (<font color="#0000cc">$678.40</font>)
UTG+1 (<font color="#0000cc">$448.10</font>)
MP1 (<font color="#0000cc">$925.95</font>)
MP2 (<font color="#0000cc">$120.10</font>)
CO (<font color="#0000cc">$368.00</font>)
Hero (<font color="#0000cc">$868.45</font>)
SB (<font color="#0000cc">$918.60</font>)
BB (<font color="#0000cc">$161.40</font>)

Pre-flop: ($6, 8 players) Hero is BTN A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">UTG raises to $14</font>, <font color="#777777">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls $14, <font color="#777777">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $14, <font color="#777777">1 fold</font>, BB calls $10

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($58, 4 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG bets $58</font>, <font color="#777777">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $58, <font color="#cc0000">BB goes all-in $147.4</font>, <font color="#cc0000">UTG raises to $558.2</font>, hero???


*Edit - Station please do not provide results or chat from this hand right now.

Re: 2 interesting $400 PLO8 hands
 

I get in on both hands, especially #1. There is no way you are beat here. Is there a reason why you arent interested in preflop comments? On #2, have you run A2xx vs KKxx vs your hand for expected value? I go by feel, and I would call, and then the 2s will hit.

Re: 2 interesting $400 PLO8 hands
 

He either has AKQJ or is 99.9% convinced that you would bluff here on the obvious board that nobody raising pf should hit.

Re: 2 interesting $400 PLO8 hands
 

hand 1: i would fold both streets.

hand 2: my gorilla math says folds.

Re: 2 interesting $400 PLO8 hands
 

Unless u have a dead on read in hand one....i cant imagine that being a call, especially against an unknown i see no option but folding, you run into a set faaar to often hear to which you a screwed, not to mention that your not all that flash hot against a made straight, and no real backdoor low to bail you out if need be....

second hand.. its real close, math might just point to a fold, but i just cant let these hands go.. also im sure there are some meta game reasons to make this call, especially if you are properly rolled for this game, shove/call and pray

Re: 2 interesting $400 PLO8 hands
 

1) How is this not a call? I mean do you think he is overcalling pf with 78A2 or something like that? I mean even if he has a set of 6s, you still have backdoor FD, backdoor terrible low draw, and GSD and Boat-draw. I think this is a call
2) I think I'm calling cuz im a donkey.

Re: 2 interesting $400 PLO8 hands
 

1) I think I fold this.

2) Yuck! I could go either way. Very tough spot--. This makes me a fish, but this is probably mood dependent to me.

Re: 2 interesting $400 PLO8 hands
 

Those are both tough spots. OldLion can definitely be bluffing in the first hand but more likely its a semi-bluff. I don't think you are much ahead of his range tho.

second hand its less likely he's bluffing. problem is that vs two guys you can be even moneyish for main pot w and behind in the sidepot.

Re: 2 interesting $400 PLO8 hands
 

1) Fist pump all-in
2) Looks sick to me. I think it's pretty close but I would fold here. A2xx and a set is out there too often.

Re: 2 interesting $400 PLO8 hands
 

Dave and everyone else who has replied,

Thanks so much for starting interesting topics like these.
I love good discussions,and you guys really know how to spark them. I greatly respect all of you. On to the hands...

Hand #1: At first I didn't look at stack sizes(I thought he was all in) and said to call. With stacks that deep I fold it. At very best you're getting slightly enough odds considering his range to call here, and you're good enough to avoid those chances and still beat the game. At worst, you're crippled(any two low cards and 78 or any two low cards and a set).

2. I'm getting my money in here. Too many possibilities. Unless he has a total monster you're getting a good price, and the key difference between this and the first hand: Even when he does have that total monster(like A2 with a set) you still have quite a few outs.


Predator, Dave doesn't want preflop comments because he already knows that everyone will question his limp UTG in hand #1 and hes ok with it. Personally, I'd love to hear Dave actually debate it and explain why he makes such plays, but in the past(and in OP here) hes avoided such discussions.

I hope you all have a great day. The holiday season is getting close,and its such an exciting time of year for all. God bless.

Love,
Assani

Re: 2 interesting $400 PLO8 hands
 

1 I thought was AI on flop as well. Since he raised 50% of his stack, I think I can find a fold but expect him to have a WSD or something like that.

Re: 2 interesting $400 PLO8 hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
*Edit - Station please do not provide results or chat from this hand right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldnt think of doing that [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I will never post anything to ruin any hand discussion

Im actually not even curious enough yet to cheat and just look for myself as i want to think about this more

Re: 2 interesting $400 PLO8 hands
 

These are interesting hands with diverse opinions on both hands.

I would definitely be interested in hearing analysis of why you thought which one of either one was the right one and how close EV-wise the decision is of calling or folding for either the first or the second hand in terms of EV and your explanation for why you thought that and why you think whether the decision is an easy one or not.

Re: 2 interesting $400 PLO8 hands
 

Hand 1: You play it utg, then call the raise pf, what are you wanting to hit with this turd of a hand?? If you're going to play it then jam and pray.
Hand 2: Jam the utg pot bet on the flop, raise and reraise.

Re: 2 interesting $400 PLO8 hands
 

Ok, hand one is probably a push at this point because if you are going to play [censored] like that then you deserve what you get when you flop a 'monster'. Dave does not want preflop discussion here, but he probably deserves preflop berating, lol.

At first glance I thought hand 2 is an easy fold, and 2 dimes backs me up. Here's the possible worst case:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3973247
pokenum -o8 ac 9c 4h 5h - kc kd qs jh - ah 2h 5c 6s -- 8c ks 3s
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 666 enumerated boards containing Ks 3s 8c
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ac 9c 5h 4h 28 52 614 0 96 371 9 0.117
Qs Kc Kd Jh 187 563 103 0 0 0 0 0.563
6s 5c Ah 2h 43 51 615 0 371 96 9 0.320

Here's something better:
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3973248
pokenum -o8 ac 9c 4h 5h - kc kd qs jh - ah 4d 3c 8s -- 8c ks 3s
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 666 enumerated boards containing Ks 3s 8c
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ac 9c 5h 4h 24 73 582 11 126 0 387 0.301
Qs Kc Kd Jh 148 579 87 0 0 0 0 0.546
8s 3c 4d Ah 2 3 652 11 0 48 387 0.153

And here's the likely best you can hope for based on the betting:
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3973250
pokenum -o8 ac 9c 4h 5h - kc kd qs jh - ah 3d 3c 8s -- 8c ks 3s
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 666 enumerated boards containing Ks 3s 8c
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ac 9c 5h 4h 87 88 578 0 521 0 9 0.463
Qs Kc Kd Jh 117 541 125 0 0 0 0 0.494
8s 3c 3d Ah 16 37 629 0 0 120 9 0.043

I'm not sure how often you can expect to see something like set over set with no reasonable low draws with this action. Even if you put BB on just a random A2 hand cuz he's short, what do you expect UTG to have that you beat? 2 pair? Ok, let's give him that:
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3973261
pokenum -o8 ac 9c 4h 5h - kc 8d qs jh - ah 2d 3c 8s -- 8c ks 3s
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 666 enumerated boards containing Ks 3s 8c
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ac 9c 5h 4h 52 91 575 0 158 355 0 0.191
Qs Kc 8d Jh 120 456 210 0 0 0 0 0.432
8s 3c 2d Ah 75 119 547 0 355 58 0 0.376

Now you could pull the shorty out of the equation when discussing the side pot with UTG, and if you think he sucks that hard then you're ok vs 2 pair w/no low obviously:
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3973274
pokenum -o8 ac 9c 4h 5h - kc 8d qs jh -- 8c ks 3s
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing Ks 3s 8c
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ac 9c 5h 4h 151 151 669 0 630 0 0 0.484
Qs Kc 8d Jh 178 669 151 0 0 0 0 0.516

Of course, OK means that you aren't a huge dog, just a tiny one. Either way, fold imo.

Re: 2 interesting $400 PLO8 hands
 

pork pie hat, the suits in the twodimes sim are wrong.

dave has spades buddy.

Re: 2 interesting $400 PLO8 hands
 

1) Fold

2) Push and pray - then rebuy? [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: 2 interesting $400 PLO8 hands
 

to add color to my post:

hand 1:

you guys are not taking the preflop betting order into account. Button raised preflop, DAVE LED INTO A multiplayer field and then MP2 repotted him by putting in half his stack. MP2's range should squarely put him on a straight and will be holding a better low draw majority of hte time. and even if he doesn't, MP2 is going to be on a set or wrap + probable better low draw the rest of the time leaving Dave as a dog. this hand is dogshit preflop and a turd after the flop action.

Dave i'm guessing you don't want to hear about preflop in this hand because you know it's atrocious. (i'm defintiely calling the kettle black here.)

hand 2: in this spot, you need to discount number of outs available to you. with the short stack possibly stealing your spade outs OR pulling a donkey move with a pair + NLD i think it's a muck.

for those saying good price so call, my math comes out to 821:500. (how is this ratio possible in PL? isn't this a no-limit hand?)

the real price you're getting is worse than that because you're going to be calling the last of hte UTG $ on a blank turn.

Re: 2 interesting $400 PLO8 hands
 

[ QUOTE ]

second hand its less likely he's bluffing. problem is that vs two guys you can be even moneyish for main pot w and behind in the sidepot.

[/ QUOTE ]

this point was in my subconcious but i think it's the other way around.

IMO, it's more likely Dave chops the side pot on a low card.

Re: 2 interesting $400 PLO8 hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
pork pie hat, the suits in the twodimes sim are wrong.

dave has spades buddy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Crap, I suck at copy/paste. Gimme a few mins to re-edit.

Re: 2 interesting $400 PLO8 hands
 

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3973643
pokenum -o8 as 9s 4h 5h - kc kd qs jh - ah 2h 5c 6s -- 8c ks 3s
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 666 enumerated boards containing Ks 3s 8c
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As 9s 5h 4h 62 167 499 0 96 371 9 0.214
Qs Kc Kd Jh 172 468 198 0 0 0 0 0.480
6s 5c Ah 2h 27 31 635 0 371 96 9 0.305

Ok, minor difference here, still sucks IMO.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3973645
pokenum -o8 as 9s 4h 5h - kc kd qs jh - ah 4d 3c 8s -- 8c ks 3s
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 666 enumerated boards containing Ks 3s 8c
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As 9s 5h 4h 69 206 454 6 126 0 387 0.410
Qs Kc Kd Jh 133 451 215 0 0 0 0 0.438
8s 3c 4d Ah 2 3 657 6 0 48 387 0.151

Little better here but still sucky.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3973648
pokenum -o8 as 9s 4h 5h - kc kd qs jh - ah 3d 3c 8s -- 8c ks 3s
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 666 enumerated boards containing Ks 3s 8c
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As 9s 5h 4h 216 221 445 0 521 0 9 0.574
Qs Kc Kd Jh 102 408 258 0 0 0 0 0.383
8s 3c 3d Ah 16 37 629 0 0 120 9 0.043

Now we go from 50/50 to 60/40. Still pretty much the best you're gonna see imo.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3973649
pokenum -o8 as 9s 4h 5h - kc 8d qs jh - ah 2d 3c 8s -- 8c ks 3s
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 666 enumerated boards containing Ks 3s 8c
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As 9s 5h 4h 97 230 436 0 158 355 0 0.309
Qs Kc 8d Jh 102 331 335 0 0 0 0 0.325
8s 3c 2d Ah 67 105 561 0 355 58 0 0.366

OK, if 2 pr was Dave's read then he is still a dog with no fold equity.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3973655
pokenum -o8 as 9s 4h 5h - kc 8d qs jh -- 8c ks 3s
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing Ks 3s 8c
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As 9s 5h 4h 309 309 511 0 630 0 0 0.593
Qs Kc 8d Jh 157 511 309 0 0 0 0 0.407

Again, 60/40 at best.

I don't see this ('this' being the correction of my earlier moronity) changing my opinion on call/fold. The interesting thing is how the spade draw only adds 10% equity to the first couple of sims. To be a fav in this spot vs anyone reasonable you need to have the only live low draw, which I don't see happening often enough to be profitable.

Re: 2 interesting $400 PLO8 hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3973643
pokenum -o8 as 9s 4h 5h - kc kd qs jh - ah 2h 5c 6s -- 8c ks 3s
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 666 enumerated boards containing Ks 3s 8c
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As 9s 5h 4h 62 167 499 0 96 371 9 0.214
Qs Kc Kd Jh 172 468 198 0 0 0 0 0.480
6s 5c Ah 2h 27 31 635 0 371 96 9 0.305

Ok, minor difference here, still sucks IMO.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3973645
pokenum -o8 as 9s 4h 5h - kc kd qs jh - ah 4d 3c 8s -- 8c ks 3s
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 666 enumerated boards containing Ks 3s 8c
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As 9s 5h 4h 69 206 454 6 126 0 387 0.410
Qs Kc Kd Jh 133 451 215 0 0 0 0 0.438
8s 3c 4d Ah 2 3 657 6 0 48 387 0.151

Little better here but still sucky.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3973648
pokenum -o8 as 9s 4h 5h - kc kd qs jh - ah 3d 3c 8s -- 8c ks 3s
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 666 enumerated boards containing Ks 3s 8c
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As 9s 5h 4h 216 221 445 0 521 0 9 0.574
Qs Kc Kd Jh 102 408 258 0 0 0 0 0.383
8s 3c 3d Ah 16 37 629 0 0 120 9 0.043

Now we go from 50/50 to 60/40. Still pretty much the best you're gonna see imo.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3973649
pokenum -o8 as 9s 4h 5h - kc 8d qs jh - ah 2d 3c 8s -- 8c ks 3s
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 666 enumerated boards containing Ks 3s 8c
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As 9s 5h 4h 97 230 436 0 158 355 0 0.309
Qs Kc 8d Jh 102 331 335 0 0 0 0 0.325
8s 3c 2d Ah 67 105 561 0 355 58 0 0.366

OK, if 2 pr was Dave's read then he is still a dog with no fold equity.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3973655
pokenum -o8 as 9s 4h 5h - kc 8d qs jh -- 8c ks 3s
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing Ks 3s 8c
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As 9s 5h 4h 309 309 511 0 630 0 0 0.593
Qs Kc 8d Jh 157 511 309 0 0 0 0 0.407

Again, 60/40 at best.

I don't see this ('this' being the correction of my earlier moronity) changing my opinion on call/fold. The interesting thing is how the spade draw only adds 10% equity to the first couple of sims. To be a fav in this spot vs anyone reasonable you need to have the only live low draw, which I don't see happening often enough to be profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

The way I read this, it is still a borderline decision. This would be dependent on the style you were playing and what range you think people would be shoving with.

Re: 2 interesting $400 PLO8 hands
 

Sorry can't avoid mentioning pre-flop selection.
Interesting predicaments.

Hand 1: Shouldn't have been in the pot period much less call a re-raise but what's done is done. But since you're in. I like the pot bet on flop but MP2 another limper / caller of massive preflop raise is the aggressor here. 78 unlikely for the made st8 (not totally out as he made an isolation play to move Button out) but I suspect that MP2 might have AQKJ for a massive re-draw or Ax10 10. You left out what the Button did. Two opponents or one. Eh, either way I would fold.

Hand 2: Love the pockets.
I would have re-raised on flop - don't get greedy isolate UTG - or maybe take it down now. You have nut flush draw and decent low cards. At this point there are no st8 draws. What a sweet flop for your hand. The all-in and re-raises are often A2-ers (maybe a set but silly re-raises with lows and flush draws possibilities). So PUSH PUSH PUSH.

My two cents. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: 2 interesting $400 PLO8 hands
 

A little more thought on hand 2&gt;

I think you have to assume that UTG has a high hand that will beat you unless you hit your flush AND I would suspect that your low-- if it comes probably is not good-- and even if it is good against UTG, it might not come. I think you have to treat this hand almost as you would a high only hand, and I think UTG has practically priced you out of the hand.

Certainly forgivable if you call, but I think fold is probably more correct.

Re: 2 interesting $400 PLO8 hands
 

good discussion so far

as far as hand 2 goes, nobody has mentioned that UTG could very easily have AA2x or AA4x, another hand that I'm a dog to.

Re: 2 interesting $400 PLO8 hands
 

Hmmm... good point, about being priced out given that flop bet was just cold called instead of being re-raised.

Preflop raiser did pot bet flop - Some people bet their A2 draws too heavily though. As you and Dave mentioned -- probably AA2x. In this hand I'm not really worried about UTG's pot bet per se. This is why I advocate raising this flop such that BB is priced out to ensure iffy backup low cards odds increase.


So, in retrospect, given the way it was bet a fold is probably best but if a re-raise was made by Hero a call is justified.

I suspect that the BB is the one with pocket Kings for trips as he did a check raise all -in.

Re: 2 interesting $400 PLO8 hands
 

Hand 1: I misread this one the first time I looked...I think with you betting into the MP2 and he raises that big(and he wasn't the preflop raiser) you're in deep [censored]...Would your opponent play a mid-wrap?? I can't see any reason to play this one any further...Just doing some gorilla math in my head, I think the best you could hope for here is to be even money and I don't think your low is worth [censored] against what his range is...Hell 65 has you beat for low...
Hand 2: Toughie...I think Mend said it was mood dependent...I'd say the same thing...If I felt like gambooling I'd shove here...I'd have to be running like the sun to do that though...I could really see UTG popping it to protect AA2/AA4/AA5 against what he perceives to be a flush draw with no A2 by you...Tough spot, but I think you gotta muck it...

Re: 2 interesting $400 PLO8 hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hell 65 has you beat for low...

[/ QUOTE ]

does not compute.