Two Plus Two Newer Archives (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/index.php)
-   Beginners Questions (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/forumdisplay.php?f=34)
-   -   starting hands only with + ev (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=545874)

 peterpanic 11-14-2007 08:04 AM

starting hands only with + ev

Hi there,

I'm new here, and also in the big poker world.
(I'm only playing since two weeks or so)

My question is:
Is it right to start only with cards with positive ev from any position?
I get the ev from poker indicator (and pi takes the values from pokerroom's ev table).

So, should I ignore the starting hand charts I printed, and go only the cards with + ev?
Ohh, that's the same question in three forms. sorry:).

mark

 gregorio 11-14-2007 09:14 AM

Re: starting hands only with + ev

If you are just starting, you should use some guidelines that you stick to with regard to which cards to play from which position, but don't be fooled into believing that there is anything like a definiative list of +EV starting cards. Everytime someone talks about PI, I go on tilt.

Keep in mind, standardish starting card requirements are completely different for limit and NL. Sklansky groups are for limit. I assume PI's EV is based on limit, since there are so many more factors you need to take into consideration when deciding what cards to play in NL than in limit.

If you ahve a starting hand chart, it is doing the same thing as PI's EV thing. But if you are playing NL, make sure you are using starting card guidelines for NL and not for limit.

 JohnPreston 11-14-2007 09:16 AM

Re: starting hands only with + ev

I guess that depends on the stakes you're playing.

If you play micro-limits, IMO this could be profitable because you'll get enough action from non-observing players if you only play +EV hands (which would be very tight obv).

I believe to be successful in mid-stakes and higher, you have to do more than playing ABC poker, e.g. blind stealing, which wouldn't be possible if you only play +EV hands.

Also, will you also play post-flop strictly according to PI (pot odds, that is)? I guess then you'll never c-bet, which leaves a lot of small pots on the way...

 pzhon 11-14-2007 11:07 AM

Re: starting hands only with + ev

The PokerRoom data is very valuable. However, poker is not just a game of reading the strength of your own hand. You also need to consider the strength of your opponents' hands, given the betting action.

ATo shows a profit from the button, but you will lose money if you play it after a raise and reraise in front of you.

K9o is a losing hand on the button, but you should have a profitable raise if everyone folds in front of you. K9o plays poorly after several players limp in, but it does well against the garbage hands in the blinds. K9o wins a significant amount of money on the button 3-handed.

Also, when you are in the blinds, you can't break even by not playing. You don't get to take your blinds back, so the point of comparison is losing 0.50 BB in the big blind, and about 0.25 BB in the small blind. This is most relevant when you are in the small blind, since in the small blind you don't get a free flop even in an unraised pot. Hands like A2o lose more money from the small blind than the cost of the blind, so players on average would have been better off folding it every time. You should be very selective about when you play A2o from the small blind.

Another important factor is that Pokerroom averages the results of all players. Most players lose. You are probably going to be a better than average player very soon, if you aren't already. That means you may be able to play some hands profitably where an average player would lose.

As someone else noted, PokerRoom's stats are from limit. If you are playing NL, then you want to make a lot of changes. For example, you should play tighter in early position in NL than in limit.

 Miraculix 11-14-2007 12:47 PM

Re: starting hands only with + ev

Hi.

I used this when I started playing NL. It was written by Excession (I think he´s still around here someware) and posted on Bet The Pot. I think this might still be a good starting point.

Hope it helps
// M

On a 25/50c Party \$25 NL Table:
• You make standard raises of \$2 (\$3 if 2+ limpers or from EP) with any of AA,KK,QQ,JJ and AK from any position. You call any minimum or standard raise with these except that you re-raise by another \$5 if you have AA or KK.
• You will also call a minimum or standard raise with any pair looking to hit a set on the flop provided at least one of the relevant stacks are \$25+ (you are always \$25+ because you buy back up to is as soon as you drop below). You are sufficiently tight to fold AQ, AJ etc rather than cold-call a raise with them.
• You will also raise from LP if folded/limped to with hands like AQ,AJ, KQ, TT, 99. If you are checked to on the flop by one or two players you will make one pot-sized bet (or ¾ sized if no flush draw on board) even if you miss with these hands, but if called again you will shut up shop. This is the only time you bluff.
• You will see cheap flops from MP and LP with marginal hands including Ax s and suited connectors - but are strict with yourself about fitting or folding. If you flop a draw you will see a free card if you can but if you are in LP and checked to by the others you will bet out half to three quarters of the pot as a semi-bluff.
• If someone re-raises your top pair or two pair all-in you are prepared to let it go unless you have half your stack already in the pot. Otherwise you will bet these hands out down to the river unless a flush card drops in or the board is showing one card needed for a straight, in which case you shut up shop and fold to any significant bet.

This is pretty much ABC poker for these limits. I know it works OK as I’ve been playing in at the Party 25’s for 6 months and my roll has trebled in that time.

 peterpanic 11-14-2007 01:55 PM

Re: starting hands only with + ev

Thanks for the responses.
I'm only playing micro limits, and of course I dont want to play abc poker forever, but for the start it's enough.
First I try to understand why these strategies are working.

I will stop using poker indicator, and start to think instead:).
But what about poker office? I use it to track my hand history, and to identify my opponents playing style.
And sometimes for odds/hand ranking:).

Thanks again,

mark

 All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:03 PM.