2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

Ok sorta aggro lady who might be tilted raises in EP, I defend my BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Flop is K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] I checkraise and she calls.

Turn is 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] I bet, she raises, I 3 bet, she quickly 4 bets...plan?

Thanks,
DeathDonkey

Re: 2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

What does she think of you. That's really key in this hand/.

Re: 2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

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Turn is 8 I bet, she raises, I 3 bet, she quickly 4 bets...plan?

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Call and check-raise the river. She has you pegged for KJ, and a young aggro-punk, she is monkey-tilting AK.

Re: 2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

She thinks I'm good and aggressive, maybe a bit LAGgy, but not vastly out of line ever. But she doesn't strike me as the type to be thinking too many levels deep, one of the weaker spots in the game who happens to play pretty well preflop.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

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Turn is 8 I bet, she raises, I 3 bet, she quickly 4 bets...plan?

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Call and check-raise the river. She has you pegged for KJ, and a young aggro-punk, she is monkey-tilting AK.

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Checkraising the river is way too much action IMO.

I'd call down and hate doing so.

Re: 2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

"I'd call down and hate doing so."

so just put her on KK and stop right there?

Re: 2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

fwiw my initial response was to call the turn and then donk-fold safe rivers (no A, K, or 3). to me it sounded like she was free showdowning with AA.

Re: 2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

This may appear obvious, but this hand really strikes me as just KK. Calling down seems correct even though you hate doing it and will lose a lot. I feel bad about doing it, and even worse when a 6 or 8 comes and I lose even more bets. The only other hand that seems remotely possible is 88, but there are 3 combos of KK vs. 1 of 88.

Re: 2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

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Checkraising the river is way too much action IMO.

I'd call down and hate doing so.

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These two statements don't match, Mike. You can fold to a 3-bet on the river as she's just not bluff 4-betting and bluff 3-betting river. The type of player that DD described is overplaying AK as she has DD on a lesser K.

Re: 2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

[ QUOTE ]
She thinks I'm good and aggressive, maybe a bit LAGgy, but not vastly out of line ever. But she doesn't strike me as the type to be thinking too many levels deep, one of the weaker spots in the game who happens to play pretty well preflop.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

So what you're saying is that you're ahead less than half the time but significantly more than never, right?

Re: 2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

i don't see how anything but calling down could be correct if she "might be tilted"

Re: 2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok sorta aggro lady who might be tilted raises in EP, I defend my BB with 8 6

Flop is K 6 3 I checkraise and she calls.

Turn is 8 I bet, she raises, I 3 bet, she quickly 4 bets...plan?

[/ QUOTE ]

If she's just ok sorta agro you're beat. She's tilting if she can't beat 86. If I wasn't sure of the read on the river I'd ch/c. But I don't hate the gamble of c/r'ing either. I'd just like a more concrete read of the tilt before giving more action than I should.

Re: 2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

She would really check behind here on the river with A-A?

Re: 2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

She almost always either has a set or AA. Call her down and find out. Hopefullly the river isn't a trey.

Re: 2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

"She would really"

no one knows what she would really do with what. not chris, not me, probably not even her if that makes sense. just from experience i know ive seen people get backed into a corner with AA on the turn like this and they like to get the last bet in and then by the time the river comes they realise theyve put in too many bets and they check. that's why i like the line i stated.

Re: 2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

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Checkraising the river is way too much action IMO.

I'd call down and hate doing so.

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These two statements don't match, Mike. You can fold to a 3-bet on the river as she's just not bluff 4-betting and bluff 3-betting river. The type of player that DD described is overplaying AK as she has DD on a lesser K.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like making folds in big pots for one bet. You're seriously suggesting putting in 6BBs and folding for a 7th (I know I just had that bluff 4bet thread -- don't call me a hypocrite :[img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]:).

Anyway, the bigger point is that once she 4 bets the turn, in my opinion the likelihood she has a set or even kings up increases a LOT. She still might have AA or AK, hence I'm calling down, but, I don't think she has it anywhere close to often enough to make checkraising the river a good play.

Re: 2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

Is it ever good to bet/call the river instead of c/r'ing like Joe Tall advocated? I take this line a lot in this type of situation in low limit games and it may be terrible, but I thought I'd just throw it out there.

Re: 2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

"Is it ever good to bet/call the river"

bet-calling the river would be awful spew. but bet-folding would be good. once raised again on the river you are officially looking at something stronger than 8s up.

Re: 2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

5-betting the turn and folding for a 6th is better than any plan involving checkraising the river, if she hits you again you're drawing dead but there's some small chance you could get her to fold a hand with outs. But the best plan of all is to just effing check-call and get to showdown and expect that since she's obviously out of control on the turn if she doesn't have you beaten, hopefully she'll be out of control and bet the river too.

-Michael

Re: 2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

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5-betting the turn and folding for a 6th is better than any plan involving checkraising the river

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Thank you for some sanity! This is obvious to me too just on basic poker theory.

I'll add a bit to the hand but I don't really think it matters. I called, river was another 8, giving me a boat, I check/called. We can all agree the river changed nothing?

-DeathDonkey

Re: 2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

Well it's possible for a tilter to have 33 here, which you beat, and the one combo of 66 you now beat... Is that enough of a change to make the river plan different? Maybe. I think I could maybe find a checkraise.

Re: 2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

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[ QUOTE ]
5-betting the turn and folding for a 6th is better than any plan involving checkraising the river

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Thank you for some sanity! This is obvious to me too just on basic poker theory.

I'll add a bit to the hand but I don't really think it matters. I called, river was another 8, giving me a boat, I check/called. We can all agree the river changed nothing?

-DeathDonkey

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well, now that you beat 66 and 33, i think i don't mind 2 bets going in on the river, so i think you can bet/call.

Re: 2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

the river changed it being ok to lose one bet if behind to being more than ok to lose two bets if you are looking at KK. how can anything be different than that?

Re: 2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

[ QUOTE ]
5-betting the turn and folding for a 6th is better than any plan involving checkraising the river, if she hits you again you're drawing dead but there's some small chance you could get her to fold a hand with outs. But the best plan of all is to just effing check-call and get to showdown and expect that since she's obviously out of control on the turn if she doesn't have you beaten, hopefully she'll be out of control and bet the river too.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

i mostly lurk here, but, forreal? i can't imagine the player described ever folding a hand with outs here.

Re: 2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

people are latching on too much to this semi-false notion that she was "on tilt". this is a good example of why posting live hands is a waste of time.

Re: 2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

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Ok sorta aggro lady who might be tilted

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people are latching on too much to this semi-false notion that she was "on tilt".

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Funny. I'm surprised you think a sorta agro type villain gets c/r'd on the flop and then goes 4 bets on the turn with just AA.

Re: 2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

ive played with her. id fear KK but also get the sense she's pushing back to free showdown (which she didnt). cant say anymore dont want to give away the results.

Re: 2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

After the 4 bet I would probably just check/call down. Is there anything wrong with that? It seems that a decent percentage of the time she thinks your FOS and some percentage she already has the nuts. With the river if you still think the same rules apply then a call down should neutralize pretty much everything right?

Re: 2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

hey mike,

Whatever she's doing you have to eventually put her on some sort of a hand. I actually think the river card is pretty good for our hero, because 33 and 66 are reasonable holdings for her, but it still may not be good enough to go off any more. The pot is plenty big enough in a spot where big pots almost always mean big hands. This was a very dry board. If she's giving this kind of action quite often, then it doesn't matter what you do - you just wait for a decent hand and play a big pot.

Re: 2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

"If she's giving this kind of action quite often"

she's not, which is why chris was confused as to what to do. one thing i can safely say is she's not the best hand reader, and she has semi-random tendencies from time to time. her A game and C game shift in and out without much notice, and it wouldnt be weird to play a couple sessions with her where you only noticed one or the other. it's not as simple as "she has KK you should call down" or "she's on tilt you should put in more action". this hand is a great example of the sort of confusing situations that can come up against commerce regulars, and it's very hard for hero to expect any sort of real help from this forum. the only people who might have some sort of idea of what's going on are the people whve logged some hours against her. and even then it's a tough call. and by no means would it be right to call her a tough or tricky player.

33 would generally not be a reasonable holding for her in this spot.

Re: 2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

mike,

I hear what you're saying and know the type of players, even though I don't know the player in question. With all that said, the less likely it is for her to have 33, then the more likely you're toast, which means just calling the hand down is fine.

The problem with many high stakes hands is they get played in a certain fashion for reasons that are difficult to articulate. Further, many folks will never even think about those things properly even with the information made available to them.

FWIW, I think she sounds like a tricky player.

Best,

The Sucker.

Re: 2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

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I'll add a bit to the hand but I don't really think it matters. I called, river was another 8, giving me a boat, I check/called. We can all agree the river changed nothing?


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If she had a lone K or AA, she missed her 8 outter.

88 is eliminated from her range, and you're now beating 66 or 33.


I think that it changes from a bet/fold or check/call into a bet/call, if you think it's at all likely she checks behind with AA or AK.

Re: 2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

[ QUOTE ]
this hand is a great example of the sort of confusing situations that can come up against commerce regulars, and it's very hard for hero to expect any sort of real help from this forum. the only people who might have some sort of idea of what's going on are the people whve logged some hours against her. and even then it's a tough call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said. I don't want to say the majority of posts, but I think that applies to a lot of them. Especially live ones like you said where the reads can be so solid. But then you come back to if your read is so solid, why post at all?

The best thing about a post is the lesson of the play. Which I don't think should always have to be posed as a problem/question. "Here's what happened, what do you think?" is good too.

Re: 2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

This thread turned out good. I check/called the river, she bet it with such confidence I was sure I was beat. She showed AK. I was embarrassed to show my hand. Oops.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

I wouldn't c/r the river, but you can bet and call another raise. If I weren't willing to lose two more on the river here, I wouldn't have called the 4th bet on the turn.

Not saying I'd never call down a 4-bet on 4th street, but not here. Not with 86. And not when I'm so concerned about KK, that I can't even bet after improving.

Re: 2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

having only read the first 2 pages i'm going to put her on AK here and check/raise the river. or bet/call the river. assuming that her raise pre-flop wasnt extremely quick, and that her raises post-flop were very quick i would assume she's put you on a lesser king as somebody else stated.

Re: 2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

I would have put her on AA since she just called ur raise and 4 betted on the turn but since you said she was tilting I would go with AK or 45 (open ender)

Re: 2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

i dont like check raising the river, check/call. The pot is real large and you could be in bad shape.

Re: 2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
5-betting the turn and folding for a 6th is better than any plan involving checkraising the river

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for some sanity! This is obvious to me too just on basic poker theory.

I'll add a bit to the hand but I don't really think it matters. I called, river was another 8, giving me a boat, I check/called. We can all agree the river changed nothing?

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

can you explain this please?

Re: 2/4 blind defense two pair hand at Commerce
 

Funny, I don't even defend 8-6s against a raise from EP.