KQs UTG+2, every street debatable
 

Every street is debatable in my opinion. Thought it would be an interesting hand to discuss. The table was loose and aggressive pf (1 raise, 5-6 people to the flop), somewhat passive postflop

UTG+1 raises first in. He is a decent player(textbook TAG) and definatly a winner. I call, since 6 people likely come to the flop with K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. One moronic guy joins us in late position, sb calls, the bb threebangs, and everyone calls. The bigblind is a loser. He does not know what is going on in most hands. He is not standard loose-passive though.

We see the flop of J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in a 15 sb pot 5 handed.

The sb and the bb (threebetter pf) check, UTG+1( original raiser) raises. I call with my gutter and backdoor flushdraw, moron calls, sb folds, bb raises, and we all call.

The turn is J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] for 11.5 bb

bb bets, UTG+1 raises, I call with my flushdraw and gutter, moron folds, bb threebets, UTG+1 caps it and I fold.

It really felt yucky to call-fold in this spot. Do you fold the first time? The second time? Do you peel the flop?

Re: KQs UTG+2, every street debatable
 

fold the flop please

Re: KQs UTG+2, every street debatable
 

[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1 raises first in. He is a decent player(textbook TAG) and definatly a winner.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about you, but my hand range becomes pretty narrow on an aggressive table when step A happens.

You have several options, I normally go with the two card pitch, but pushing the cards slightly forward and removing your marker works just as well.

Re: KQs UTG+2, every street debatable
 

BadBigBabar,

You fold the first or the second time on the flop? I thought it reasonable to put the original raiser on an A, and bb on some pair that didn't hit the flop, therefore he checked. You really fold getting 1-16?

Slavic:
Of course I would fold if I didn't expect 6 people to be in the hand with me. I don't think I am that bad in this spot though:
Hands: Combo's Equity
ATs+, AJ+, TT+ 82 27.2%
KhQh 1 21.9%
** 1326 12.7%
** 1326 12.7%
** 1326 12.8%
** 1326 12.7%

Re: KQs UTG+2, every street debatable
 

[ QUOTE ]
fold the flop please

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with the BBB here. The problem with this flop is that your gut shot, and possibly flush outs, may not be good. Paired paint boards with this kind of PF action spell trouble for non-nut holdings IMO.

Also, the flop check after the 3-bet PF by BB is highly suspect, especially given your description of BB. On-line, that's frequently a poorly played monster or a monster draw (KcQc).

And lastly, you said the table had been somewhat passive post-flop. Seems like a couple of guys have "woke up" here.

Re: KQs UTG+2, every street debatable
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
fold the flop please

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with the BBB here. The problem with this flop is that your gut shot, and possibly flush outs, may not be good. Paired paint boards with this kind of PF action spell trouble for non-nut holdings IMO.

Also, the flop check after the 3-bet PF by BB is highly suspect, especially given your description of BB. On-line, that's frequently a poorly played monster or a monster draw (KcQc).

And lastly, you said the table had been somewhat passive post-flop. Seems like a couple of guys have "woke up" here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: KQs UTG+2, every street debatable
 

Is coming into this hand with a raise out of the question here?

Re: KQs UTG+2, every street debatable
 

[ QUOTE ]
fold preflop please

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Re: KQs UTG+2, every street debatable
 

Your description of UTG+1 should make your PF decisions fairly easy.

You consider changing seats if possible?

Re: KQs UTG+2, every street debatable
 

You were trying to peel the flop and it just got uglier and uglier. You don't have the nut flush draw, full house may already be out there but this pot is huge.

If you hit your flush you might have to pay 4 bets to call it down plus the two you still need on the turn. Ugly. Good fold.

Don't tell me you would have hit the flush and they both had jack crap.

Re: KQs UTG+2, every street debatable
 

No they didn't had both crap. One guy had JJ, The other AA. An ace on the river made the decent player wining for the rest of the night.

Re: KQs UTG+2, every street debatable
 

Wow, any jackpot on this?

Re: KQs UTG+2, every street debatable
 

Wow, trying to hit the backdoor flush here is going to cost you most likely at least 2 bets on the flop and 2 on the turn judging from preflop action. Also you could be (and were) drawing dead here a lot of the time. Youre already dead to AA, JJ, AJ, and if you hit your straight you're still losing to JT.

I don't think the preflop call is horrible really, but judging from the responses of other, more experienced players apparently it is and I'll have to reevaluate myplay of suited broadway in future sessions.

Re: KQs UTG+2, every street debatable
 

UTGs bet is to be respected... my range calculator tells me he's flopped an ace or better about half the time, and that's before we know that he bets into a clearly highly protected pot.

That said, if we assume that UTG bets any pair of aces or better, we still have pretty good equity against him, at least, relative to the size of the pot. Pokerstove says we have 12% (7.3:1) against this hand range. Even if we add in a club draw AND give big blind the same range as UTG, we still have 6.3%. Getting 16:1, we could call if we were closing the action.

However, since we're NOT calling, and this is a pretty action-oriented flop, we have to fold. It's way too risk to make a speculative call here with so many players still to act. If we end up putting in 2 bets on this flop, we're losing money.

Preflop, you could fold, though I don't mind your call given your expectation that there will be five players to the flop. Obviously they are calling with lots of garbage, so that mitigates your domination concerns.


On the turn... tough spot. I like your decision to fold when it's 2 cold back to you the 2nd time. When it's 2 cold the first time... yikes. You're getting 7:1 immediately though... I think calling is fine. If UTG really has you drawing dead, it's a bit odd that he didn't 3-bet the flop and has preferred to face the field with 2 cold on the turn. You could be dead to either him or the BB of course though, so 7:1 may not be enough of an overlay. Close decision either way (better to have avoided it by mucking the flop [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]).

good luck.
Eric

Re: KQs UTG+2, every street debatable
 

I'd like to thank you all for your responses. especially Elindauers was very thorough. I am surprised that so many of you don't like the pf call. I assume you would like it if I were the button and three/four people cold-called before me?

ps: No jackpot:)

Re: KQs UTG+2, every street debatable
 

[ QUOTE ]
the bb threebangs, and everyone calls. The bigblind is a loser. He does not know what is going on in most hands. He is not standard loose-passive though.


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If he's not LAG, he just 3 bet out of the BB which means his range is very narrow.

b

Re: KQs UTG+2, every street debatable
 

Even though the raiser has you crushed preflop almost 100% of the time, I still think the preflop call is fine IF IF IF you know/suspect the flop will be 5+ players. The only way you know this is how raises have been handled in the past, have players been willing to coldcall 2 bets with any two? If so go ahead and jump in, the problem is I think you have to be willing to dump this on the flop for all the reasons mentioned above. Cost you 2 big bets, no biggy.