Harrahs Rake Increase
 

Whats the latest info on Harrahs rake increase to $5?

In Las Vegas;
5 Ballys
5 Paris
5 Harrahs
5 Flamingo
5 IP

4 Caesars

? Rio
? any others

And what about other Harrahs around the country?
Missouri and Tunica are still $4.

Re: Harrahs Rake Increase
 

Harvey's in Tahoe was $4 plus $1 jackpot.

Re: Harrahs Rake Increase
 

$4 + $1 jackpot at all the harrah's properties in atlantic city.

Re: Harrahs Rake Increase
 

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$4 + $1 jackpot at all the harrah's properties in atlantic city.

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thats odd, I thought it went up to 5 already in AC. I hope this thread gives us a definitive answer on Harrah's rake policies, anyone know Jeffrey? Perhaps he will agree to respond.

Re: Harrahs Rake Increase
 

I think Harrah's N.O. is $5 + $1 jackpot

Re: Harrahs Rake Increase
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
$4 + $1 jackpot at all the harrah's properties in atlantic city.

[/ QUOTE ]

thats odd, I thought it went up to 5 already in AC. I hope this thread gives us a definitive answer on Harrah's rake policies, anyone know Jeffrey? Perhaps he will agree to respond.

[/ QUOTE ]

My guess is they want to remain competitive w/other rooms in AC, as they're still all at 4.

Re: Harrahs Rake Increase
 

is it ten percent or like $3 at 40, $4 at 60, etc?

Re: Harrahs Rake Increase
 

[ QUOTE ]
is it ten percent or like $3 at 40, $4 at 60, etc?

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10% up to 4

the real truth on harrahs rake increases
 

The real truth of the matter is that those running the poker program in harrahs senior management don't have the slightest clue. These are not poker people, they are corporate scum who have only succeeded in leading the way backwards in all aspects of poker.

This rake increase was one of the stupidest moves they have made yet. All of these rooms have lost considerable business, mostly from regular players and some from the more saavy tourists. The rooms wind up with fewer games, but the overall drop has probably remained about the same. In addition, there will be fewer players able to win at these rooms, and games that do get started will break faster. Non-winning players will lose faster and be more likely to give up sooner. In the long run, this will costs harrahs money, not make them more. It's a bad deal for everyone.

Because they won't ever see these effects, harrahs corporate idiots will keep patting themselves on the back anyway. Senior management has ignored any and all comments, suggestions and criticisms when it comes to poker. They don't even realize that harrahs is the laughing stock of the poker world (especially with the fiascos associated with every year they have run the wsop).

The only way complaints about higher rake will ever have any effect is if players fill out comment forms and turn them in. However, most just complain bitterly to the staff (who have no control on the matter) and then leave.

Al

Re: Harrahs Rake Increase
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
$4 + $1 jackpot at all the harrah's properties in atlantic city.

[/ QUOTE ]

thats odd, I thought it went up to 5 already in AC. I hope this thread gives us a definitive answer on Harrah's rake policies, anyone know Jeffrey? Perhaps he will agree to respond.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe it was $5 for a bit a little while ago, but last I saw, it was back to $4+$1.

Re: Harrahs Rake Increase
 

For the record, I know that the I.P. is still a 4 max.

Re: Harrahs Rake Increase
 

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I think Harrah's N.O. is $5 + $1 jackpot

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For limit that's correct. For NL it's $6/down + $1/hand JP. They may not take the JP at 5/10 and 10/25 NL.

I'm not sure $5+1 is a Harrah's rake policy. It seems pretty standard in Louisiana.

Re: Harrahs Rake Increase
 

Even 5 years ago 5+1 was standard in louisianna. It's a new thing in vegas, and has pissed off many players. Part of the reason people are so pissed off about it here is that they're already pissed off about the fact harrahs keeps claiming how much better the wsop will be this year, but in reality it keeps getting worse. The **** should really hit the fan if they're jacking up the rake at the rio for the 2008 wsop. They should have a real riot on their hands if they try and charge the bigger cash game players more in time charges (even tho they've been charging these jerks considerably less than most other places already do).

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Harrahs is leading the way backwards when it comes to poker.

Al

Re: the real truth on harrahs rake increases
 

[ QUOTE ]

This rake increase was one of the stupidest moves they have made yet. All of these rooms have lost considerable business, mostly from regular players and some from the more saavy tourists. The rooms wind up with fewer games, but the overall drop has probably remained about the same.

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Fewer games going = Lower operating expenses
Lower operating expenses + same total drop as before = +EV for Harrah's

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In addition, there will be fewer players able to win at these rooms, and games that do get started will break faster. Non-winning players will lose faster and be more likely to give up sooner.

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I'm not sure this is true. Harrah's went to a 5 rake in its rooms that are primarily for tourists/conventioneers who happen to be at the property, but not at Caesar's, which is their only Vegas poker room that is actually a draw in its own right. To the extent the higher rake drives away locals and poker-driven tourists, that probably improves the casual player's EV in these games, higher rake notwithstanding.

Also, I suspect that the more casual player that Harrah's targets is a better customer for Harrah's in other ways (house-banked games, hotel, f&b) than tourists whose primary focus is poker or (especially) locals.

I'm not saying I support the rake increase; as a player, low rake is always better. I'm wouldn't assume this decision was a mistake from Harrah's standpoint, though.

Re: the real truth on harrahs rake increases
 

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Fewer games going = Lower operating expenses
Lower operating expenses + same total drop as before = +EV for Harrah's



[/ QUOTE ]


Ok, tell me how sustainable a poker room is when half of its table are ALWAYS empty. Especially when plenty of neighboring poker rooms don't look like graveyards. Image is very important to a poker room, especially long-term.

Re: the real truth on harrahs rake increases
 

It is very sustainable if you treat it as a gaming option for your guest as opposed to a primary stream of revenue for your property. Like many other amenities a casino offers, they serve as an"extra draw" for the primary streams of revenue, slots, table games, hotel, etc.

Re: the real truth on harrahs rake increases
 

I'm just suggesting that there can be negative feedback loops that can relatively quickly erode the number of patrons at any card room. It's not hard to see how this happens either. If the rake is raised, most of the regulars and astute tourists will find other places to play. If, over the course of a month for example, the number of players at a card room drops by a third, that will have a pretty large impact on that room's reputation, or 'feel' if you will.

Imagine you went to a bar that you normally enjoyed. Only today, drink prices were jacked up, and the place was dead. You went back a few more times to see if things changed, but everything was still expensive and not much fun. Pretty safe to say you'd quit going to that bar, right? It's likely that if enough people felt the same way, that bar would go out of business.

Card rooms are subject to the same market forces as the above bar example. The only reason defunct card rooms hang on longer than they should is that there is a significant overhead to renovating a poker room into another raft of slot machines.

Re: Harrahs Rake Increase
 

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Even 5 years ago 5+1 was standard in louisianna.

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Al, you're half-right. Its about split between 5+1 and 4+1 at casinos across the state.

Re: Harrahs Rake Increase
 

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For the record, I know that the I.P. is still a 4 max.

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Thanks for the update -- keep us posted on any changes.

And -- What about O'Sheas? 4 or 5 max there?

Re: Harrahs Rake Increase
 

I was told that IP was going to $5 max on no limit games. This was from a floor person at Harrah's.

Re: the real truth on harrahs rake increases
 

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harrahs is the laughing stock of the poker world



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Woot, woot ! Put that statement in their comment box.

Re: Harrahs Rake Increase
 

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I was told that IP was going to $5 max on no limit games. This was from a floor person at Harrah's.

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I've found you can't completely believe what any particular Harrah's property employees say is going on at others. Part of the reason the rake increase was done at Harrah's was because they were told others besides Bally's were already doing it. "Oh, gee...we're behind...gotta raise that rake!" Only no, they were #2. And they still today have problems with various poker management honestly believing "Bellagio and those guys are already doing $5--I called them and verified this". Well...dunno who you talked to but no, they aren't doing it. Maybe if you'd get off your plump rump and actually go VISIT another poker room you might learn a thing or two ferreal.

Re: Harrahs Rake Increase
 

I.P. Is still $4. Dont expect a change. I Play at the I.P. everyday. I was playing a 2-4 HOE game on thursday and friday. It was awsome. They got some really cool promotions.They are tring to get a regular Omaha game going. The Day floor was teliing me that they are gonna offer a Omaha Bad Beat starting at 10,000 if they get the game rolling. Any quads beaten. Most Omaha Jackpots are Quad Jacks Beaten. We will see.

Re: Harrahs Rake Increase
 

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[ QUOTE ]
I was told that IP was going to $5 max on no limit games. This was from a floor person at Harrah's.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've found you can't completely believe what any particular Harrah's property employees say is going on at others. Part of the reason the rake increase was done at Harrah's was because they were told others besides Bally's were already doing it. "Oh, gee...we're behind...gotta raise that rake!" Only no, they were #2. And they still today have problems with various poker management honestly believing "Bellagio and those guys are already doing $5--I called them and verified this". Well...dunno who you talked to but no, they aren't doing it. Maybe if you'd get off your plump rump and actually go VISIT another poker room you might learn a thing or two ferreal.

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That may be true but there seems to be some relationship between the Harrah's, Flamingo, and IP rooms as though centralized decisions are being made. I believe The Flamingo (O'Shea's) and Harrah's share a manager and he seems to be involved at IP even if he technically isn't the manager.

Re: the real truth on harrahs rake increases
 

[ QUOTE ]
Imagine you went to a bar that you normally enjoyed. Only today, drink prices were jacked up, and the place was dead. You went back a few more times to see if things changed, but everything was still expensive and not much fun. Pretty safe to say you'd quit going to that bar, right? It's likely that if enough people felt the same way, that bar would go out of business.


[/ QUOTE ]

Imagine that this same bar is located in a hotel that caters to traveling businessmen. Do you care that the drinks cost $1 more than your bar at home? No, you expect to pay more because it is a very nice hotel with hot women wandering around the area. Do you care that the locals go elsewhere? Not at all, after all, you will be gone in two days. Besides you have more in common with the fellow business patrons than the rude locals anyway. In fact you might even prefer to pay extra for the better environment and tell all your fellow business friends they should stay at this same hotel when they visit as well.

Pretty soon this bar is so crowded they raise the prices even more, all the better, now only well heeled people will be hanging out with you, better company = more value.


Jimbo

Re: the real truth on harrahs rake increases
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just suggesting that there can be negative feedback loops that can relatively quickly erode the number of patrons at any card room. It's not hard to see how this happens either. If the rake is raised, most of the regulars and astute tourists will find other places to play. If, over the course of a month for example, the number of players at a card room drops by a third, that will have a pretty large impact on that room's reputation, or 'feel' if you will.

Imagine you went to a bar that you normally enjoyed. Only today, drink prices were jacked up, and the place was dead. You went back a few more times to see if things changed, but everything was still expensive and not much fun. Pretty safe to say you'd quit going to that bar, right? It's likely that if enough people felt the same way, that bar would go out of business.

Card rooms are subject to the same market forces as the above bar example. The only reason defunct card rooms hang on longer than they should is that there is a significant overhead to renovating a poker room into another raft of slot machines.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only problem with this is that many tourists which the casino are going to target after increasing the rake do not notice the rake at all. I have heard hundreds of times: If the casino isn't playing in the hand, how do they make money on it? Then someone will say, haven't you noticed the dealer taking chips out of the pot and droping them down the retractor? Ummm......no but now I see what you're talking about, and then continue to play without another mention of it. They usually don't even ask how much. The ones that do ask will usually say that they are saving money by playing poker, as many would drop much more on Table games/Slots/Clubbing and such.