3/6 Razz: ramming and jamming on 3rd with a monster
 

Seat 3 is the worst fish I've ever seen. Either that or he's on megatilt. He's playing 70% of his hands and raising at nearly every possible opportunity. I was shocked when he folded a hand.

Seat 5 seems okay, and he's obviously noticed the fish.

I have a huuuge hand here on 3rd. I should be happy getting it capped here, right, pot size considerations be damned? Folding 5th is good or is the pot too huge to fold already?

Razz ($3/$6), Ante $0.50, Bring-In $1 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.33 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___completes___calls___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises___raises
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Seat 7: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds

4th Street - (13.67 SB)

Seat 3: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___calls

5th Street - (8.33 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds

6th Street - (10.33 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets___raises___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises___raises

River - (18.33 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___bets___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___raises

Total pot: (22.33 BB - $134)

Results:

Total pot $134 | Rake $3

Note: this site shuffles the hole cards.

Seat 3: [Jd 3s 2h 6h 3h Qd Ac] - J,6,3,2,A

Seat 5: [Td 6s 5h 7s 5s 2s 3c] - 7,6,5,3,2

Re: 3/6 Razz: ramming and jamming on 3rd with a monster
 

Third is perfect. You should probably call fifth if he's that bad, though.

Re: 3/6 Razz: ramming and jamming on 3rd with a monster
 

According to TT you should flat-call 3rd so you can get away from your hand more cheaply when you brick 4th and 5th.

Don't want to give them odds to chase!


/sarcasm

Re: 3/6 Razz: ramming and jamming on 3rd with a monster
 

I think I agree about the 5th call, though it's iffy.

It's the parley of pot size, runner runner draw, the fact that 263 very likely has paired (or started with a bad one down if he's that bad), and the fact that he's a donk.

Some people might fret about reverse implied odds but the guy with the open fives is not going to cause you much of a problem with jamming, and you will improve your odds a lot by correctly recognizing when you are drawing dead on 6th, and by not having to pay off 7th much.

Re: 3/6 Razz: ramming and jamming on 3rd with a monster
 

Definitely jam 3rd.

Pot size considerations are somewhat moot if the pot is already large. If you just smooth-call there are at least 6SB + the antes in the pot, so your opponents will be correct to call on 4th with bricks.

5th street pot size with just 2 bets going in on 3rd, one on 4th = $0.50 * 8 + $1 + $3 * 2 * 3 + $3 * 3 = $32.

5th street pot size with 4 bets going in on 3rd, one on 4th = $50.

How many hands can correctly call at 9.3 to 1 that can't call at 6.3 to 1? With 37 unknown cards left on 5th street we're talking about the difference between 3.5 and 5 outs.

Re: 3/6 Razz: ramming and jamming on 3rd with a monster
 

[ QUOTE ]

Pot size considerations are somewhat moot if the pot is already large. If you just smooth-call there are at least 6SB + the antes in the pot, so your opponents will be correct to call on 4th with bricks.


[/ QUOTE ]

It's a multiway pot, so I'm not sure that it is correct to call on fourth with bricks when it could cost you more than one bet.

Did the hero pretty much give away his hand if seat 5 is observant by checking fourth? What else could/should he jam with on third and check-call on fourth with those boards against that fishy player? Can fourth street be played any other way?

Re: 3/6 Razz: ramming and jamming on 3rd with a monster
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Pot size considerations are somewhat moot if the pot is already large. If you just smooth-call there are at least 6SB + the antes in the pot, so your opponents will be correct to call on 4th with bricks.


[/ QUOTE ]

It's a multiway pot, so I'm not sure that it is correct to call on fourth with bricks when it could cost you more than one bet.

Did the hero pretty much give away his hand if seat 5 is observant by checking fourth? What else could/should he jam with on third and check-call on fourth with those boards against that fishy player? Can fourth street be played any other way?

[/ QUOTE ]
I would bet 4th, even if you risk being raised. The other guy jamming got a 7, so he may just call. Checking gives away that you paired.

Re: 3/6 Razz: ramming and jamming on 3rd with a monster
 

I don't mind giving away that I paired by checking 4th. Seat 3 isn't paying attention, and I don't think there's much value in deception a pot this large. Also, there's no way seat 3 is ever folding, so I'm going to need to show down the best hand. He probably raises if I bet, which would be bad, obviously. It would only be good if it would mean seat 5 would fold, but I don't doubt he's calling two bets, even though my board looks like I might jam on him.

Re: 3/6 Razz: ramming and jamming on 3rd with a monster
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Pot size considerations are somewhat moot if the pot is already large. If you just smooth-call there are at least 6SB + the antes in the pot, so your opponents will be correct to call on 4th with bricks.


[/ QUOTE ]

It's a multiway pot, so I'm not sure that it is correct to call on fourth with bricks when it could cost you more than one bet.

Did the hero pretty much give away his hand if seat 5 is observant by checking fourth? What else could/should he jam with on third and check-call on fourth with those boards against that fishy player? Can fourth street be played any other way?

[/ QUOTE ]


I thought about exactly that point.

It reminds me of the stud 8 section in SS/2 where Todd Bruson talks about the "advanced play" of 3-betting to freeze the other two hands from capping you, when you have a paired low card but can represent a good made low.

Here the "advanced play" would be to lead out, hoping you will pay 2 bet at most rather than four (as you would against good opponents if they had both improved).

I think it's probably a good move.