(value) bet this turn?
 

hero is LMP with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

loose asian guy limps in ep. he's straightforward but knows how to bet and raise his good hands. i've seen him c/r before when he hits.

white guy on my right limps in mp. he's sort of a bad tag, i guess. he has donked into me before on a coordinated board after my pfr, but he didn't get to showdown.

i raise.

loose/passive, stupid-tricky guy coldcalls.

lp asian dude coldcalls on the button.

tight bb folds. everyone else calls.

* FLOP * 5 players, 11 sb
Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

mp weak tag donks, i raise, button calls, ep asian calls, mp calls.

* TURN * 4 players, 9 bb
J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

checks to me, i...?

Re: (value) bet this turn?
 

Uh, hmmm, wow this is a toughie. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Bet, for Shania's sake. Why wouldn't you? You've got somewhere between 9 and 15 outs against anything that might be out there, and 3 opponents.

Re: (value) bet this turn?
 

yeah, i'd bet it for sanity reasons and all the usual ones too.

Re: (value) bet this turn?
 

I guess the question is, why wouldn't you bet the turn? Why are you second guessing?

Re: (value) bet this turn?
 

bet and call. LDO

Re: (value) bet this turn?
 

I'd lead this turn. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Nobody has played back after your flop raise. You have a great made hand and a redraw to the nuts.

Re: (value) bet this turn?
 

Grunch:
Bet/Call you have top pair and and a nut flush draw. If you hit your flush on the river maybe your flush will be disguised a bit and it will pay off well.

ps: practice being more racial tolerance

Re: (value) bet this turn?
 

[ QUOTE ]
ps: practice being more racial tolerance

[/ QUOTE ]

i didn't realize i was being racial intolerance?

Re: (value) bet this turn?
 

I understand.. it's okay:)

Re: (value) bet this turn?
 

ok so no one is worried about getting c/r'd on a QJ98 board? it's true that we have outs if behind, but why pay two bets to draw? surely we don't have the best hand very often against three opponents, and we don't have enough opponents to bet for value -- if everyone were to call we would need ~12 outs to fashion an equity edge here.

Re: (value) bet this turn?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I understand.. it's okay:)

[/ QUOTE ]

interesting, beccause i do not understand. do you think "asian" and "white" are inappropriate descriptions?

here is a post i made in oot today that hopefully demonstrates my cultural worldliness:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...umber=13105368

Re: (value) bet this turn?
 

[ QUOTE ]
do you think "asian" and "white" are inappropriate descriptions?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, they're either inappropriate or superfluous. ducy?

Re: (value) bet this turn?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
do you think "asian" and "white" are inappropriate descriptions?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, they're either inappropriate or superfluous. ducy?

[/ QUOTE ]

Asians are more likely to be gamblors, so it adds to the read. I don't think racial profiling is necessarily racially intolerant.

Would it be offensive if he said something like "the elderly woman in seat 3..."?

Re: (value) bet this turn?
 

I go ahead an value-bet this for the reasons everybody else has suggested. One other factor in this hand is that I can't necessarily save a bet by checking because the coldcaller might bet anyway if I check to him.

This analysis assumes that the dealer is a white male. If he's a minority, then I change my vote to "check."

Re: (value) bet this turn?
 

[ QUOTE ]


This analysis assumes that the dealer is a white male. If he's a minority, then I change my vote to "check."

[/ QUOTE ]

lol...nh

Re: (value) bet this turn?
 

aaronisrite.

i'm not sure if the rest of you are levelling me or have never played live poker or are boz and just being a bitch for the sport of it.

actually i'm pretty sure about one of those.

Re: (value) bet this turn?
 

but seriously folks...

no one fears a c/r? maybe my devil's advocating needs a little work?

Re: (value) bet this turn?
 

[ QUOTE ]
but seriously folks...

no one fears a c/r? maybe my devil's advocating needs a little work?

[/ QUOTE ]

tyler, with the monster redraw, why do you care if you are check raised? It looks like a good way to trap for more bets to me.

Re: (value) bet this turn?
 

t,

lol if c/r i might 3-bet if conditions are right.

love,

j

Re: (value) bet this turn?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think racial profiling is necessarily racially intolerant.

[/ QUOTE ]

Racial profiling in governmental policy = racial intolerance.

Racial profiling in poker reads = who cares?

Just my two cents. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: (value) bet this turn?
 

[ QUOTE ]
no one fears a c/r?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. We could have the best hand already and, if not, we have a monster redraw. Risking check through is worse than risking c/r, in my opinion.

Re: (value) bet this turn?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i'm not sure if the rest of you are levelling me or have never played live poker

[/ QUOTE ]
QFMFT. When (if) you play live you will "profile" opponents based on their mannerisms, hairstyles, fashion, etc. etc., so it's not "wrong" to profile by race.

Unless, of course, you refuse to change said profile even if a certain opponent doesn't fit it.

Re: (value) bet this turn?
 

grunch...

bet, and call a check raise. You've got 9 outs to a nut flush, and will get crying calls on the river cos pot's big.

Re: (value) bet this turn?
 

[ QUOTE ]
ok so no one is worried about getting c/r'd on a QJ98 board? it's true that we have outs if behind, but why pay two bets to draw? surely we don't have the best hand very often against three opponents, and we don't have enough opponents to bet for value -- if everyone were to call we would need ~12 outs to fashion an equity edge here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get it... 12 outs? If you get checked raised, you're paying 2BB for a pot of ~11BB. That is a pot odds of 5.5:1, which would be more than enuff to let you hit your flush.

Re: (value) bet this turn?
 

[ QUOTE ]

i'm not sure if the rest of you have never played live poker or are boz and just being a bitch for the sport of it.

actually i'm pretty sure about one of those.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm pretty sure both of these are right.

Re: (value) bet this turn?
 

mild hijack of my own thread imminent:

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i'm not sure if the rest of you are levelling me or have never played live poker

[/ QUOTE ]
QFMFT. When (if) you play live you will "profile" opponents based on their mannerisms, hairstyles, fashion, etc. etc., so it's not "wrong" to profile by race.


[/ QUOTE ]

it's not just poker, either. someone stops you in the street to ask for directions. you will know, with 99% confidence, in the first three seconds of that conversation if you are speaking with a local (in which case you give one set of directions) or a domestic tourist (in which case you give another set of directions) or a foreigner (in which case a third set). does this make you a racist? or are you just using all the information available (like a good poker player!) to provide the best solution?

anyway, this makes me a little testy because i'm such a slobbering fanboy of world culture. there is so much fear of "racism" that i can't even describe a person's obvious ethnic heritage without drawing penalty flags[**]. besides, i sat -- stoically -- through waaaay too many n*gger jokes at Thanksgiving to have my racial ethics called into question.


[**] most non-americans may read this as "drawing yellow cards". aussies can read it as "blarging shimble banthers lolol" or whatever the [censored]. see how worldly and culturally sensitive i am?

Re: (value) bet this turn?
 

also tyler i bet here fwiw

Re: (value) bet this turn?
 

[ QUOTE ]
maybe my devil's advocating needs a little work?

[/ QUOTE ]

Demonic worship ban imo?

Bet and see it get raised by button or someone and lose probably half the field who you want putting money in. Check and the world checks with you. So bet already.

Re: (value) bet this turn?
 

[ QUOTE ]
it's not just poker, either. someone stops you in the street to ask for directions. you will know, with 99% confidence, in the first three seconds of that conversation if you are speaking with a local (in which case you give one set of directions) or a domestic tourist (in which case you give another set of directions) or a foreigner (in which case a third set). does this make you a racist? or are you just using all the information available (like a good poker player!) to provide the best solution?

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's the problem I have, Tyler (and, fwiw, I have no [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] for the current culture of offense, either): saying, "He's x," and expecting me to read, "ah, that means he's y at the poker table," is you expecting me to have the same experiences you do.** In other words, your asking us to critique your play without actually giving us a read.

Also, your example isn't really on-point. If you looked at a guy on the street and said, "Hmmm, he's wearing a t-shirt that says [something in German], he must not live around here I'd better not ask him for directions," that would be closer. Once you've spoken to him and realized that he's not a local, you've seen him play a hand and so you have a better read than just a default.

** fwiw, in my experience at Commerce/Bay101/SD Indian (sorry, non-immigrant Americans) casinos, the most likely worshipers of Gamblor are Latinos. Aisans are much more likely to be LP-TA. Middle Eastern/Eastern European players might as well be flinging chips onto the table with both hands.

Re: (value) bet this turn?
 

Checks with outs.

I suppose there are more hands that beat you right now than you can value bet into, and given your reads - I can't find as much value.

A check may induce a weaker hand to bet or check/call a river bet. A raise will invite a re-rasie from those hands that are beating you -

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Re: (value) bet this turn?
 

Wow,

I must be way off. I just read the whole post and (outside of maybe OP) I'm the only one checking this board?

The obvious str8ish board - which leads to players possibly having connecting hands that made two pair.

Weakish, but tagish players, betting into us.

This really seems like an induce bluff hand, or get to showdown cheaply hand.

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Re: (value) bet this turn?
 

sarge,

[ QUOTE ]
Checks with outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is what i was thinking, but no one is into it. obviously we have a great deal of equity, but i don't see why paying two bets to see the river is good for us. are we really ahead so often that we don't want to give a free card? what hands are folding that we want to fold anyway?

Re: (value) bet this turn?
 

[ QUOTE ]
saying, "He's x," and expecting me to read, "ah, that means he's y at the poker table," is you expecting me to have the same experiences you do.** In other words, your asking us to critique your play without actually giving us a read.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's a valid argument, but i'm not sure what else i can do. if the facts i have on the player in question are "is asian", then that's all i have for a read and i provide it. would it really be better to just say "villain is unknown"?

obviously our experiences are going to be different. this is true whether we're talking about someone i have declared is a "LAG" or a so-called "weak TAG" or a "middle-aged asian guy". even though our experiences are quite different, surely we will come to an understanding faster by laying out all the facts than by constantly dealing with "unknown" villains.

Re: (value) bet this turn?
 

[ QUOTE ]
that's a valid argument, but i'm not sure what else i can do. if the facts i have on the player in question are "is asian", then that's all i have for a read and i provide it. would it really be better to just say "villain is unknown"?

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my point in my initial response on the tangent, tho. The read, "asian," is either inappropriate (you're applying your experiences with Asian players, which may be different from mine) or irrelevant (you're just telling me his nationality, not how he plays).

[ QUOTE ]
obviously our experiences are going to be different. this is true whether we're talking about someone i have declared is a "LAG" or a so-called "weak TAG" or a "middle-aged asian guy". even though our experiences are quite different, surely we will come to an understanding faster by laying out all the facts than by constantly dealing with "unknown" villains.

[/ QUOTE ]

Our experiences are different which is why we use terms like LAG, which we have developed a pretty standardized definition for. Just try posting "MP3 was a TAG: 38/23/0.2" as a read and see what the responses are.