Professional No-Limit Hold \'em Volume 1 Review Thread
 

Hi everyone,

This'll be the thread for reviews of PNL1 only. If you have questions about how to get the book or comments about the back cover, please post in the other thread.

A general comment: PNL1 is not directed at winning pros, although some advanced concepts are discussed. Our goal was to turn new or marginal players into successful mid-limit pros. PNL1 is the start. There are a great many topics left to come in future books.

Here are all the reviews from the other thread:


From ajloeffl:

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I've read through the Basics chapters and have to say I am impressed so far. It is concise enough not to be a chore and still contains a lot of good information. I have high hopes for the rest of the book which I will read over the next couple days.

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Next from ajloefl:

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I am about half way through the book and I don't think I have seen any other errors other than the one mentioned.

A lot of the information in this book has not been seen in such a user friendly format in any of the bazillion poker books I have read. This is a very high quality book with critical concepts for mastering "stack limit" holdem I can already give this book a wayyyyyyyyyy thumbs up and I still have half left to read.

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Question from BigSlick79053:

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So what exactly does this mean about the Sklansky and Miller "No limit Hold'em Theory" book 2+2 published last year? Why was there a need for this new book? Did I waste my money on their book last year?

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ajloeffl responds:

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You hardly wasted your money on that book. It covered many good topics to help your no limit game. If you think you wasted your money on it, then you didn't read it and understand it and apply it. There is money involved in this game and paying 30 bucks for a book that can make you thousands should hardly be considered wasting money.

This new book is a different book covering different topics. If you think one book can cover this game, then you are sorely mistaken.

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From FieryJustice:

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So I just spent the last 8 hours or so reading the book. The first half or so of the book was pretty basic stuff that I already knew, but I could see how it could be helpful to lesser experienced players. I really did learn a ton from the second half of the book, which will hopefully make me lots of money in the future. Im sure it will either do that or make me go broke. I am a little concerned that the book only gives examples of how to play hands like AK when you make top pair. What about the times where you get a SPR of 4 or so then miss. Im sure betting is still what is going to be suggested in a later volume, but that sort of puts you near being committed. Hopefully this will be addressed in a later volume. All in all though, I have learned more from this book than I have from any other in the recent past.

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FieryJustice tries out SPR:

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I figured id reply and let everyone know that if tonights results were indication of the future, I will be broke within a month.

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Matt Flynn responds to FieryJustice's question:

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What about the times where you get a SPR of 4 or so then miss. Im sure betting is still what is going to be suggested in a later volume, but that sort of puts you near being committed. Hopefully this will be addressed in a later volume. All in all though, I have learned more from this book than I have from any other in the recent past.

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we ran out of room. Sunny wrote that discussion long before volume 1 was submitted, but it wouldn't fit. also, we will visit it again under c-betting, under bluffing, and under some other topics.

spr of 4 would not change your c-betting frequency much vs. high spr if you took initiative with AK preflop. don't commit normally.

in some games you would go all-in with AK there on occasion as part of line defense and balancing, or if you sensed weakness or expected to be against a weak range. you want fold equity in those situations / get low pairs out and so normally arrange to fire the last shot. sometimes, though, it works better to fire a big first shot.

opponent counters your c-bet by raise bluffing - interesting spot for a minraise whether he has it or not. the game just gets tough then.


sorry first session didn't get the monies.

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Sunny Mehta responds to FieryJustice:

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Hi FieryJustice,

Thanks for the kind words, and good observations re: AK. We do make constant mention of the steal equity points throughout the book (in fact, even regarding specifically AK i.e. - page 208: "You will make top pair or better about 1 time in 3. The other times you may steal. If you can make money stealing, you sometimes want to get more money in preflop. We explain those exceptions in Making Adjustments starting on page 234."), but as Matt mentioned, we'll have much more to say about the whole topic in Volume Two.

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FieryJustice responds:

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I suppose my problem with it is that if you are stealing you cross your committment point or whatever it is called. Like if you to reraise with AK and get the SPR to 4, you generally have about 1/10th or so of your 100bb stack in. If you miss the flop, you have to bet another 15 or 20bbs, which would put basically 1/3 of your stack in. I think you guy ssaid that was bad but that could mean apply only if you have a made hand like tp. Thanks for the replies. I appreciate it. I cant wait til volume 2.

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Sunny Mehta responds:

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Well, you're right that a bet there would cross you over the Commitment Threshold, but remember (from the Exceptions on making bets when at the Threshold):

"You might make a large bet if you are bluffing or semibluffing." (page 152)

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XxGodJrxX asked:

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I was thinking of getting NLTAP and PNL. Reading the comments on this thread is making me think that NLTAP is old and busted next to this book. Should I bother getting NLTAP? Maybe read PNL first and then NLTAP later?

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HSB responded:

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I was thinking of getting NLTAP and PNL. Reading the comments on this thread is making me think that NLTAP is old and busted next to this book. Should I bother getting NLTAP? Maybe read PNL first and then NLTAP later?

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I haven't read PNL yet but I found NLHTAP to be a valuable read.

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Sunny and I will follow the thread to answer any questions. Thanks everyone for taking an interest in the book.

Matt


EDIT: Here are some other threads to also take a look at:

discussion thread in SSNL forum

discussion thread in uNL

Full Ring forum thread


Card Player Magazine review

Re: Professional No-Limit Hold \'em Volume 1 Review Thread
 

I do agree with your "general comment", Matt. This book will do a good job of helping to turn marginal players into successful ones. The ideas presented of REM, commitment, and stack to pot ratios do an excellent job of describing how to eliminate some huge flaws I have seen in other players. As a mid limit pro, I was already aware of these concepts in a vague form, but as described they really helped me understand them in theory and practice.

I still have about 40 pages left in the book to read and I'll post some more questions/comments after that.

I really look forward to the next installment of this series.

Re: Professional No-Limit Hold \'em Volume 1 Review Thread
 

REM,?
commitment, i understand this
stack to pot ratios, I understand this.
what's REM, and where can i find out about REM?

Re: Professional No-Limit Hold \'em Volume 1 Review Thread
 

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REM,?
commitment, i understand this
stack to pot ratios, I understand this.
what's REM, and where can i find out about REM?

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i suggest trying "professional no limit poker volume 1" by sunny mehta and matt flynn.

Re: Professional No-Limit Hold \'em Volume 1 Review Thread
 

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REM?

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Range, Equity, Maximize. It describes how to think through no-limit problems.

REM in PNL1 does not include second/third level thinking about ranges. Volume 2 has a lot about impressions of ranges including second/third level thinking and related topics.

Re: Professional No-Limit Hold \'em Volume 1 Review Thread
 

really looking forward to this book, and i believe the #1 basic in no-limit is depth of stack and how to play certain hands (i.e. what stack level are all my chips going in with AA? except i guess for huge callers and amazing flop.... but is that general stack size 15BB, 35BB, 50 BB???)

i enjoy tournaments so looking forward to short-stack and shortish-stack advice. especially the whole relationship between getting paid and commitment to your hand....

basically looking for this stack size and this hand, you should be thinking XXXXXX... and sounds like this book will be excellent. surprisingly not that much stuff like this out there.

Re: Professional No-Limit Hold \'em Volume 1 Review Thread
 

when is volume two coming out?

Re: Professional No-Limit Hold \'em Volume 1 Review Thread
 

Wow. I received my PNL (along with How to Dominate and Sit 'n Go) already (thanks to Mike at ProfessionalPoker.com), and I'm in Boston right now visiting! My review upon skimming is that PNL looks like a damn good book. I would like to see 3 or 4 volumes, not 2, if the authors think they have that much to say. One volume alone could be all problems/examples like Harrington did. Examples like that are very helpful to the learning process. The other volumes could cover various aspects of FR and 6-max live and online. Just a thought. Can't wait for the next volume and for the Harrington cash books. Now I have to decide what order to read these books in . . .

Re: Professional No-Limit Hold \'em Volume 1 Review Thread
 

Oh, for those of you who are still deprived, I would be willing to sell the entire set of three books for $1,000 total. Wait a minute! What is this typo on the fine print in the back! Refund please.

Re: Professional No-Limit Hold \'em Volume 1 Review Thread
 

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I would like to see 3 or 4 volumes, not 2, if the authors think they have that much to say.

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Much appreciated dthf! If we're still game for writing you'll see at least four.

We're trying to stay methodical for volume 2 but also give readers what they most want, like discussion of 6-max vs. full ring.

Let me know what you think of PNL1.

Re: Professional No-Limit Hold \'em Volume 1 Review Thread
 

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I would like to see 3 or 4 volumes, not 2, if the authors think they have that much to say.

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Much appreciated dthf! If we're still game for writing you'll see at least four.

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Why stop there

There are many colors

Re: Professional No-Limit Hold \'em Volume 1 Review Thread
 

Matt,

After intending to spend 20-30 mins skimming the book I've just returned to the real world more than 4 hours later!

Most of the focus of the book is on manipulating the SPR to suit you and not your opponents. While I intuitively understood some of the principles of SPR before reading chunks of the book I now realize just how much more thorough I'm going to have to be in implementing it into my game. I shudder when I think of how badly I've been misplaying top pair hands against aggressive opponents. There is no doubt that this book will be of great help to all players up to Mid Stakes. Its refreshing to see a systematic treatment of how stack sizes influence the way a hand is played - a subject that is almost completely ignored by other NLH books.

Re: Professional No-Limit Hold \'em Volume 1 Review Thread
 

Is this a continuity error?:

Halfway down p275 the book states "The tight player doubled up in the previous hand, so now his stack size is over $1,000." But in the previous hand the tight player bet the flop and everybody folded.

Re: Professional No-Limit Hold \'em Volume 1 Review Thread
 

Page 275 already? Take the Evelyn Wood class?

Re: Professional No-Limit Hold \'em Volume 1 Review Thread
 

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Page 275 already? Take the Evelyn Wood class?

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[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] Not quite. Years of needing to quickly look up reference material in computer manuals has left me unable to read anything linearly. I skim, diving in at interesting points to read before resuming skimming. Combine that with impatience (I just moved straight to the final couple of chapters of Harry Potter 7) and my reading skills are a mess!

Re: Professional No-Limit Hold \'em Volume 1 Review Thread
 

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Is this a continuity error?:

Halfway down p275 the book states "The tight player doubled up in the previous hand, so now his stack size is over $1,000." But in the previous hand the tight player bet the flop and everybody folded.

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good catch....I'll have to double-check the misprint...we'll fix it for the next edition....thanks....

Re: Professional No-Limit Hold \'em Volume 1 Review Thread
 

Should we start a separate Harry Potter thread? Is that by 2+2? They wish!

Re: Professional No-Limit Hold \'em Volume 1 Review Thread
 

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Its refreshing to see a systematic treatment of how stack sizes influence the way a hand is played - a subject that is almost completely ignored by other NLH books.

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Are there really any good NL books to date besides David & Ed's NTP and Mat/Sunny/Ed's PNL? Honestly all the others I have picked up were bad... PNL is going to set the bar so high, it only gets better from this point forward guys and gals!

Re: Professional No-Limit Hold \'em Volume 1 Review Thread
 

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Are there really any good NL books to date besides David & Ed's NTP and Mat/Sunny/Ed's PNL? Honestly all the others I have picked up were bad... PNL is going to set the bar so high, it only gets better from this point forward guys and gals!

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And you know what? I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

You are right, though. I think PNL is the first book to ever cover the play of a NL hold'em hand after the flop.

Re: Professional No-Limit Hold \'em Volume 1 Review Thread
 

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REM?

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Range, Equity, Maximize. It describes how to think through no-limit problems.

REM in PNL1 does not include second/third level thinking about ranges. Volume 2 has a lot about impressions of ranges including second/third level thinking and related topics.

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I know it's a bit soon to be asking... but could you give a potential timeframe for the release of Volume 2? [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Professional No-Limit Hold \'em Volume 1 Review Thread
 

Will it be before or after Harrington on Cash?

Re: Professional No-Limit Hold \'em Volume 1 Review Thread
 

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And you know what? I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

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That's the first thing I thought of, too...

Re: Professional No-Limit Hold \'em Volume 1 Review Thread
 

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Hi everyone,

This'll be the thread for reviews of PNL1 only.
Matt

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Re: Professional No-Limit Hold \'em Volume 1 Review Thread
 

The book is great so far. I'm throught about the first 50 pages and should finish the fundamentals section tonight. I can't put it down. When theory and practice came out last year I started reading it like this, but couldn't comprehend it all. This is much better and maybe I can reat TandP now. Last book I read this fast was Largay's book, but this is even better! Love the basics section even if I use all of that stuff except implied odds which is probably why I play such a marginal game.

Re: Professional No-Limit Hold \'em Volume 1 Review Thread
 

I can't wait for my copy to arrive, feel like a child waiting for Christmas lol!

Re: Professional No-Limit Hold \'em Volume 1 Review Thread
 

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I can't wait for my copy to arrive, feel like a child waiting for Christmas lol!

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Re: Professional No-Limit Hold \'em Volume 1 Review Thread
 

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I can't wait for my copy to arrive, feel like a child waiting for Christmas lol!

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Re: Professional No-Limit Hold \'em Volume 1 Review Thread
 

Every time I see a new message I am hoping for book discussion and I find quoted quotes...here I sit broken hearted..

Re: Professional No-Limit Hold \'em Volume 1 Review Thread
 

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Every time I see a new message I am hoping for book discussion and I find quoted quotes...here I sit broken hearted..

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It's really hard for use to feel sorry for you, since you had your copy before any of us. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Professional No-Limit Hold \'em Volume 1 Review Thread
 

A serious question semi-related to reviewing the book (which I haven't received yet) - is this book likely to have a similar affect on games as SSHE did on mid-low limits 3 years ago, when the aggro in games went up x% like instantly?

Re: Professional No-Limit Hold \'em Volume 1 Review Thread
 

I think we can kiss off ever seeing a smaller than pot size bet ever again.

Re: Professional No-Limit Hold \'em Volume 1 Review Thread
 

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I think we can kiss off ever seeing a smaller than pot size bet ever again.

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R U Serious ???

Re: Professional No-Limit Hold \'em Volume 1 Review Thread
 

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I think we can kiss off ever seeing a smaller than pot size bet ever again.

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Is this really what's taught in the book? Is there anything on pot control or playing smallball?

Review of cover design
 

Just wanted to say that it's easily the best poker cover design I have ever seen.

Thank you Gonso!!!

Matt

Re: Professional No-Limit Hold \'em Volume 1 Review Thread
 

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I think we can kiss off ever seeing a smaller than pot size bet ever again.

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Is this really what's taught in the book?

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No, in fact we recommend 2/3 the pot as a default bet size for those times when you know you should bet but don't know how much, or when you need to use a fixed bet size to cover your range. That's in "Basics" - more advanced players will adjust from there.

Re: Professional No-Limit Hold \'em Volume 1 Review Thread
 

OMG, are you guys nuts??? It seems like half the topics in the table of contents are about COMMITMENT!!!!! You just lost your entire audience of single males. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: Professional No-Limit Hold \'em Volume 1 Review Thread
 

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I think we can kiss off ever seeing a smaller than pot size bet ever again.

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Is this really what's taught in the book? Is there anything on pot control or playing smallball?

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By way of explanation, a check is not a bet. Neither is a fold.

And if you want to know what's taught in a book, read it. Don't take a quote that's probably meant as a joke out of context.

Re: Review of cover design
 

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Just wanted to say that it's easily the best poker cover design I have ever seen.

Thank you Gonso!!!

Matt

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Thank you, although I'm partial to the V2 blue color. I'm looking forward to the book like everyone else. Ok, back to reviews now

Re: Review of cover design
 

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Just wanted to say that it's easily the best poker cover design I have ever seen. Matt

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i just realized how sad i am to see the guns go

Re: Review of cover design
 

My internet was out so I actually read most of the book last night. I have to say some of the ideas are quite radical! Min-Reraising with AK, or limping QQ to get to target SPR's etc. This book certainly has the potential to really change how the mid-stakes no limit games are played. Of course, there will be a lot of people who shun any of the advice but it's going to be a huge mistake. I'm still thinking about the preflop raise varying vs. deception aspect, there are definitely many players who will punish you for this but how important it is, I'm not sure. The authors make very good arguments for why it's not as bad as you think it is.

The commitment threshold and SPR stuff really makes you think about the game, and in no way gives you cookie cutter actions for certain situations. I like how it's highly integrated with player reads, flow of game, etc.