Big strike at GM
 

CNN

73,000 UAW workers walked off the job at GM plants nationwide. They are arguing over wage, health care and outsourcing concerns.

I liked seeing that unions are alive and well in this country. IMO, the single thing that government can do to improve quality of life the most is to strengthen unions. I think it also proves that unions are not necessarily a competitive disadvantage: the dispute is over how much to cut from the old contract instead of what new goodies the unions are getting.

Re: Big strike at GM
 

A failing union in a failing industry nails its own coffin shut.

Re: Big strike at GM
 

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CNN

73,000 UAW workers walked off the job at GM plants nationwide. They are arguing over wage, health care and outsourcing concerns.

I liked seeing that unions are alive and well in this country. IMO, the single thing that government can do to improve quality of life the most is to strengthen unions.

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And here I was thinking that the single thing government could do to improve quality of life the most would be to eliminate most of the taxes that are out there ;-) That wouldn't even be regressive; gas taxes and sales taxes and so forth kill poor people.

But back to the subject at hand:

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I think it also proves that unions are not necessarily a competitive disadvantage: the dispute is over how much to cut from the old contract instead of what new goodies the unions are getting.

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If they haven't already sunk GM with their accumulated demands over decades maybe there is hope yet. They'll probably have to do a lot of cutting to regain true competitiveness with companies like Toyota and Honda.

Re: Big strike at GM
 

Iron, as someone from Michigan, who has their entire family working in the auto industry, I'll tell you that no single group has done more damage the Michigan economy other than the Union.

The union's had their time and place, but they are now holding back all of the major auto companies. Their constant resistance to modernization, streamlining and keeping costs down add about 2k per vehicle compared to imports and contributes to a lot of quality problems in manufacturing.

If Unions were truly needed and necessary to Michigan, you wouldn't be forced to join one to work at pretty much every plant. Compare "Right to work" states versus states where you can be mandated to work as part of a union to work in a plant. The "right to work" states are doing much, much better.

Re: Big strike at GM
 

If you approve of unions, you have no idea how they actually operate, and how detrimental they are to business. Imagine the govt, but about 1000 times more corrupt.

Re: Big strike at GM
 

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Iron, as someone from Michigan, who has their entire family working in the auto industry

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I call BS. WHERE in the auto industry do they work? I'm guessing management, or some other non-union position.

Re: Big strike at GM
 

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Iron, as someone from Michigan, who has their entire family working in the auto industry

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I call BS. WHERE in the auto industry do they work? I'm guessing management, or some other non-union position.

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I was thinking of getting a GM car last year, I'm glad I bought Japanese. Can't wait til these bums are on the street.

Re: Big strike at GM
 

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If you approve of unions, you have no idea how they actually operate, and how detrimental they are to business. Imagine the govt, but about 1000 times more corrupt.

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I agree. I'm of the opinion that unions have long outlived their usefullness.

Cody

Re: Big strike at GM
 

Ah, the accusation of dishonesty. Didn't take long to get that one out.

Re: Big strike at GM
 

I read this summary of what is being fought over, and it looks like the union is once again only willing to do too little too late to actually help the US automakers survive.

UAW contract talks at a glance

Here are some of the issues in the contract talks between the United Auto Workers and General Motors Corp. The UAW struck GM at plants across the country Monday but bargainers remained at the table. Once GM and the UAW reach an agreement, the terms will likely be matched by Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC.

LABOR COSTS: Detroit's automakers lost a collective $15 billion last year, and all say they need labor cost parity with their Asian competitors in order to turn consistent profits. GM pays its U.S. workers $73.26 an hour, while Toyota Motor Corp. pays its U.S. workers about $48 per hour, according to an estimate from the U.S. automakers. The UAW says labor is only about 10 percent of the cost of a vehicle.

HEALTH CARE: Among the top issues is the Detroit companies' combined $90.5 billion unfunded retiree health care obligation. GM, Ford and Chrysler want to get that liability off their books. The automakers want to establish a fund — known as a voluntary employee beneficiary association, or VEBA — with a portion of their obligations and let the union be responsible for future benefits. UAW President Ron Gettelfinger said Monday that the union isn't striking over the VEBA.

JOB SECURITY: UAW membership has fallen from a high of 1.5 million active members in 1979 to about 576,000 today, and the union already has agreed to massive buyout plans and changes to retiree health care to help the automakers. The union wants GM to promise future production and investment at U.S. plants, which is difficult for GM because the automaker's U.S. market share is in decline.

Re: Big strike at GM
 

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The union's had their time and place

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Not really.
http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/7651/wageswr9.png
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/5...ctivityzo2.png

Re: Big strike at GM
 

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Iron, as someone from Michigan, who has their entire family working in the auto industry

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I call BS. WHERE in the auto industry do they work? I'm guessing management, or some other non-union position.

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lol Snowball...

-Dad, Grandpa Engineer (non-union, but not management)
-2 uncles, auto parts plant (union)
-Mom, Healthcare Management, basically all her work is for the Big 3, directly or indirectly (self-employed)
-Not to mention everyone on my mom's side of the family who worked in [censored] ass union factories in Muskegon

Not to mention pretty much any business you are running in Michigan requires the auto industry to do well, for pretty obvious reasons. It isn't, so we are 49th (I believe) in economic productivity in the nation.

Also, cuts in management and engineering have already happened, and it sucked. Basically my dads dept was cut in half, he's lucky to still have his job.

Snowball, look at right to work states vs states w/ mandatory union factories. See which economies and workers are doing better.

Re: Big strike at GM
 

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The union's had their time and place

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Not really.


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whats the time frame for those graphs again, because it looks like it ends in the 1960s, and we aren't in Pleasantville

Re: Big strike at GM
 

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The union's had their time and place

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Not really.


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whats the time frame for those graphs again, because it looks like it ends in the 1960s, and we aren't in Pleasantville

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The book those graphs are from was written in the late 50's (F.A. Harper's Why Wages Rise). In any event, do you really think that right after the 60's wages somehow fell in line with union membership or wages fell out of line with productivity increases? What time and place did they have?

Re: Big strike at GM
 

Some quick facts:
-Michigan has the second highest per-unit labor costs in the nation
-Between 1970 and 2000 non-right-to-work states lost 2.3 million manufacturing jobs
-right-to-work states over the same period gained 1.4 million manufacturing jobs.
-Wages in rtw states are lower, but that is w/o cost of living adjustments
-2001 David Kendrick of the National Institute for Labor Relations Research did similar calculations for nine Midwestern states and found that take-home pay was higher under right-to-work laws.

Quickly cherrypicked (i'm doing hw) from:
http://www.mackinac.org/article.aspx?ID=5937
Which is a conservative group obv, but its in line with stats I've seen prior

BIG UNIONS Shoot Themselves in the Foot...Again.
 

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liked seeing that unions are alive and well in this country. IMO, the single thing that government can do to improve quality of life the most is to strengthen unions.

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In college I had to take a labor relations course.
Mgmt and unions do NOT negotiate on a level playing field. The current federal labor laws GREATLY favor unions. I remember one case study where a company wanted to get rid of their union. So they got the idea to to set up a mgmt committee that would compete with the union for the workers favor by treating them better. The project was a success and many workers left the union (why pay union dues when the company is now treating you well). The union took the company to court and forced them to disband their employee program. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] LOL! The lesson is unions are like herpes. The courts and pols will fight like hell in favor of the unions because the worker bees have more votes than the owners.

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I think it also proves that unions are not necessarily a competitive disadvantage: the dispute is over how much to cut from the old contract instead of what new goodies the unions are getting.

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The auto unions did TOO good of job in the negotiations. Heavily capitalize companies like auto unions are VERY vulnerable durin labor negotiations because work stoppages are extra painful towards their bottom line (interest rates on the equipment kill them). So in the 70s,80s,90s.....Big auto caved more than they should have.
Health care costs are KILLING them. The CEO of GM claimed he spends more time on the workers health care costs than he does building cars....

The govt needs to butt out. Too many mfg jobs are being chased away by bad laws that are suppose to help union workers. The result is the companies get pissed and ship the jobs overseas.... Having overseas factories are bad for the comapanies as well. Look at Mattel in China. Corrupt govt can screw companies anytime they want...

Also companies they get unions deserve them. Usually by being arrogant and neglectful towards the workers. The problem is once the unions get in, it is almost impossible to get rid of them and union workers tend to be lazier than most. Afterall they all get paid the same no matter how hard they work. In my experience, the more militant a union worker is...they lazier they are. And you can't reward the harder working employees because the union fights tooth and claw for compensation based on tenure rather than productivity....

Re: Big strike at GM
 

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The union's had their time and place

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Not really.


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whats the time frame for those graphs again, because it looks like it ends in the 1960s, and we aren't in Pleasantville

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The book those graphs are from was written in the late 50's (F.A. Harper's Why Wages Rise). In any event, do you really think that right after the 60's wages somehow fell in line with union membership or wages fell out of line with productivity increases? What time and place did they have?

[/ QUOTE ]I think everyone involved in this quote here thinks unions are pointless today. Let's not bother with an argument about whether they had a point 50 years ago.

Anyways,

It has always struck me as odd that businesses that form cartels and purposefully shut out competition at the expense of overall welfare are villified, and generally held in violation of various laws, while the explicit mission of labor unions is do the EXACT same thing and it is encouraged--even guaranteed by articles like the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Re: BIG UNIONS Shoot Themselves in the Foot...Again.
 

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The CEO of GM claimed he spends more time on the workers health care costs than he does building cars....

[/ QUOTE ] Not to mention the fact that for every car GM sells, it has to pay a couple grand in "legacy costs" for its retired employees.

Even if the company were just as efficient and consumer-oriented as the Asian companies, there's simply no way they would overcome this. It will literally destroy them.

Re: Big strike at GM
 

The funny thing is that unions have tried forever to break into Toyota US plants, and the US workers say they don't want them.

Re: BIG UNIONS Shoot Themselves in the Foot...Again.
 

It's a microcosm of our own entitlement situation.

Re: BIG UNIONS Shoot Themselves in the Foot...Again.
 

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The CEO of GM claimed he spends more time on the workers health care costs than he does building cars....

[/ QUOTE ] Not to mention the fact that for every car GM sells, it has to pay a couple grand in "legacy costs" for its retired employees.

Even if the company were just as efficient and consumer-oriented as the Asian companies, there's simply no way they would overcome this. It will literally destroy them.

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No, no no. 73,000 workers walking off the job is going to convince GM NOT to move jobs overseas.

Re: Big strike at GM
 

Ike, its not exactly news that companies prefer setting up non-union factories. Of course businesses want to lower costs. The solution here is to simply get rid of right-to-work and federalize labor laws.

Felix,

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Also companies they get unions deserve them. Usually by being arrogant and neglectful towards the workers.

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I can't think of a better reason for unions. Indeed, the major reason the UAW has had trouble breaking into the Japanese plants is that they are paying their workers a similar wage to the union plants. Guess why.

Re: Big strike at GM
 

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-Michigan has the second highest per-unit labor costs in the nation
-Between 1970 and 2000 non-right-to-work states lost 2.3 million manufacturing jobs
-right-to-work states over the same period gained 1.4 million manufacturing jobs.
-Wages in rtw states are lower, but that is w/o cost of living adjustments
-2001 David Kendrick of the National Institute for Labor Relations Research did similar calculations for nine Midwestern states and found that take-home pay was higher under right-to-work laws.

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The solution here is to simply get rid of right-to-work and federalize labor laws.


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Iron, did you not read his post?

Re: Big strike at GM
 

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The solution here is to simply get rid of right-to-work and federalize labor laws.

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No, thats the solution to unionize every factory, which would have a negative effect. The amount of outsourcing due to increased labor costs would skyrocket.

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Also companies they get unions deserve them. Usually by being arrogant and neglectful towards the workers.


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I can't think of a better reason for unions. Indeed, the major reason the UAW has had trouble breaking into the Japanese plants is that they are paying their workers a similar wage to the union plants. Guess why.

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This actually proves my point Iron. All I'm asking for workers to decide if they need the union or not. If other factories prosper w/o unions, why can't Michigans?

Re: Big strike at GM
 

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The solution here is to simply get rid of right-to-work...

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You heard it folks. Iron wants to get rid of your right to work. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Big strike at GM
 

Although I'm not that familiar with labor laws, I'm pretty sure that there is a "decertification" process whereby a factory's workers can dump the union. The point is, that the threat of unionization rings hollow if labor laws are moved toward the corporate position. Given declining union enrollment, other workers won't have the choice of unionization. We'll see how high the wages in the Japanese factories are then.

Also, from the first sentence of the mission statement for the National Institute of Labor Relations:

"Over the past two decades, the National Institute for Labor Relations Research (NILRR) has documented the harm inflicted on workers and society by compulsory unionism."

Sounds kind of shilly.

Re: Big strike at GM
 

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Indeed, the major reason the UAW has had trouble breaking into the Japanese plants is that they are paying their workers a similar wage to the union plants.

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Actually, there are unions in Japanese auto plants. The difference is that rather than being protectionist organizations that use violence and government coercion to try to benefit a few members at the expense of everyone else in society, Japanese unions typically understand actual economics, that wages rise with productivity, and hence the unions work *with* employers to increase productivity.

Re: Big strike at GM
 

iron,

I'm really not sure what you are getting at. Under your earlier assumption, wouldn't workers stop falling unionization rates if they were being treated badly? Right to work doesn't destroy unionization, it destroys bad unions.
I'll define a bad union as one that it is either:
1. Not needed
2. Has a negative effect on its workers at the present time

I don't see how you could say 1 or 2 isn't true about the (CURRENT) UAW

I think you are kind of out of your element here.

Re: Big strike at GM
 

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"Over the past two decades, the National Institute for Labor Relations Research (NILRR) has documented the harm inflicted on workers and society by compulsory unionism."

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There are many more studies out there that support right to work, but I gotta go to bed

Re: Big strike at GM
 

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Although I'm not that familiar with labor laws

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Then why did you start a thread about, and fill it with recommendations for labor law changes?

Re: Big strike at GM
 

When is China coming out with that new $9,000 car of theirs? I can't wait.

Re: Big strike at GM
 

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When is China coming out with that new $9,000 car of theirs? I can't wait.

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I am sure it will be extra safe! [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: Big strike at GM
 

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When is China coming out with that new $9,000 car of theirs? I can't wait.

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I am sure it will be extra safe! [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

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Oh $9,000 is for the "remarkably well-built" midsized sedan. If you can handle a small, gas sipping car without being encased in steel, the price starts in the $4,000 range.

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A test drive here of the Lifan 520 sedan showed it to have an impressively sturdy body with no rattles or wiggles even when traveling over very rough pavement — although this is no guarantee of long-term reliability. There is ample headroom in the front seats and even the rear seats for a 6-foot-4 occupant.

The $9,700 price tag includes leather seats, dual air bags, a huge trunk and a DVD system with a video screen facing the front passenger — a combination that could cost twice as much in a comparably equipped midsize sedan in the United States.

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Re: Big strike at GM
 

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I liked seeing that unions are alive and well in this country.

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This strike doesn't mean that unions are alive and well in this country. The strike is a bad idea. GM has been taking it in the shorts for awhile and it's not like they'll be missing a lot of profits by having this strike. Actually I don't think the workers have much leverage in this but not sure what their strike benefits are in this day and age. At one time the UAW workers could stay out a long time due to generous strike benefits. Don't know if GM could do a chapter 11 to rid itself of its pension liabilities either. Noticed that this was a yawner for the GM stock.

Re: Big strike at GM
 

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They are arguing over wage, health care and outsourcing concerns.

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...UAW has had trouble breaking into the Japanese plants...

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</irony>

Re: Big strike at GM
 

Iron,
You correctly point out the benefits of unions while ignoring the downside. What good is high wages and great benefits when those costs make your company unable to compete?

On top of that unions foster an us vs them mentality that kills productivity and innovation.

Re: Big strike at GM
 

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When is China coming out with that new $9,000 car of theirs? I can't wait.

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I am sure it will be extra safe! [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

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Oh $9,000 is for the "remarkably well-built" midsized sedan. If you can handle a small, gas sipping car without being encased in steel, the price starts in the $4,000 range.

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A test drive here of the Lifan 520 sedan showed it to have an impressively sturdy body with no rattles or wiggles even when traveling over very rough pavement — although this is no guarantee of long-term reliability. There is ample headroom in the front seats and even the rear seats for a 6-foot-4 occupant.

The $9,700 price tag includes leather seats, dual air bags, a huge trunk and a DVD system with a video screen facing the front passenger — a combination that could cost twice as much in a comparably equipped midsize sedan in the United States.

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i think the point is that if they can't avoid putting lead into children's toys and toothpaste, they'll have a tough time with the quality control required to build a car

Re: Big strike at GM
 

It's ok, they stole the blueprints from western companies.

Re: Big strike at GM
 

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i think the point is that if they can't avoid putting lead into children's toys and toothpaste, they'll have a tough time with the quality control required to build a car

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Those GM pensioners better hope that you're right, but it seems like a huge assumption to me. China has designed and built their own fighter jets -- there's nothing supernaturally difficult about building a reasonable car for less than GM can do it.

Re: Big strike at GM
 

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i think the point is that if they can't avoid putting lead into children's toys and toothpaste, they'll have a tough time with the quality control required to build a car

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Those GM pensioners better hope that you're right, but it seems like a huge assumption to me. China has designed and built their own fighter jets -- there's nothing supernaturally difficult about building a reasonable car for less than GM can do it.

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the fact that china built is own fighter jets is completely irrelevant due to the fact that they aren't built on the cheap. not to mention they're fighter jets. have you been paying attention at all to news about chinese product recalls lately?