Applicability of Stox\'s book to mid-level, live LHE (no play content)
 

Preface: I realize that I'm probably asking overly broad and/or "apples and oranges" questions here; but, since I have tons of respect for so many of the 2+2ers in this particular forum, I'll hazard appearing silly by doing so anyway. (And I didn't post this in the "Books and Publications" thread because I really want the perspective of the posters here.)

To the extent that Stox's subtitle, "Short-Handed and High-Stakes Concepts..." might mitigate the relevance of these questions, here goes:

1)Stox's "opening hands chart" (page 12) applies to a ring game (as well as short-handed and tough games). He prefaces this by saying that "you should follow a rote strategy based almost exclusively on your two hole cards and your position." His recommendations have considerable variance with those provided in SSHE ("tight game" recommendations) and Hilger's ITH. Comments on his recommendations...(and I'm asking specifically about live, mid-limit ring games)

2) Would Stox's playing style be profitable in a mid-limit ring game when all fold to HJ? In other words, if I was in HJ and all fold to me, could I profitably adopt Stox's "short-handed and high-stakes" playing recommendations in this game? Is it a reasonable baseline to assign Stox's "hand values" to those players acting behind me and/or their actions?

Again, I realize that I'm leaving out a lot of information here. (E.g., how the table is playing, quality of the players behind me, etc.) I'm admittedly a bit of a "poker book junkie" but would appreciate your comments.

Re: Applicability of Stox\'s book to mid-level, live LHE (no play conte
 

The playing conditions in a typical live, mid-limit game are still much more applicable to a SSHE style of play.

Many concepts, (fold equity comes to mind) don't apply live to the same degree which you might find online. More straightforward play will generally get the money live.

In general, I think the stox style would provided too much action in a live situation. Players are much less likely to get out of the way, especially from the blinds, and are much more likely to call down the whole way.

Popping it with 44 from the HJ makes a lot of sense in a game where pots are contested HU. When you're quite likely to see 4 to the flop despite a raise, these sorts of moves become problematic.

Re: Applicability of Stox\'s book to mid-level, live LHE (no play conte
 

I think the best players in this section (and I'm not one of them, but I'm a winning player) would tell you that cruising along according to a chart is *sometimes* going decrease your profit, specially in a long session where many of your opponents are the same. If you find that playing a wider range of hands in the HJ is getting you a lot of blinds, then pound them. But when some of them start to adjust, you better adjust your "table". I've found this to be one of the things most frequently left out of some books. In the span of 2 hours I find myself adjusting my range at least a few times. As you mentioned another very important thing to consider is player skill. If you get in over your head against someone who is much better then you post flop, that's going to have a big impact on how you play from the HJ.

Re: Applicability of Stox\'s book to mid-level, live LHE (no play conte
 

Thank you so much, gentlemen, for your considered replies. Excellent observations both.

I've already made out the advanced alimony payment with the money I would have spewed. Strike that- would have geysered.

Dam, I love this forum!

Re: Applicability of Stox\'s book to mid-level, live LHE (no play conte
 

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Many concepts, (fold equity comes to mind) don't apply live to the same degree which you might find online. More straightforward play will generally get the money live.


[/ QUOTE ]

You're right but...The tight game concepts don't apply as often (since there are more hands with multi players), but when it IS folded round to just a couple of players, as far as I can tell they're just as applicable.

Re: Applicability of Stox\'s book to mid-level, live LHE (no play conte
 

Ya I hope I was specific enough. I didn't elaborate more, but you sound like you didn't need more pushing then that.

Have you gotten your hands on some of the advanced limit tutorial videos floating around the web ? There are some (particularly 6 handed ones) that are going to completely change the way you play. You'll wonder how you ever folded J7s before [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Applicability of Stox\'s book to mid-level, live LHE (no play conte
 

Are those concepts just as applicable in assigning hand ranges to those acting after you?

Re: Applicability of Stox\'s book to mid-level, live LHE (no play conte
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are those concepts just as applicable in assigning hand ranges to those acting after you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not necessarily. The premise of the stox book is that you'll be in a game with other players who play much as you do. The players will be tight, aggressive, thinking and probably formidable. The games will feature very few multiway pots and nearly all pots will be raised preflop.

SSHE presumes that the other players will often be bad, specifically they'll be too loose and take hands too far. Multiway pots will be common and often the flop may be seen without a raise.

In my experience, it is hard to assign hand ranges in live play as so many are willing to play any two cards without regard to the action in front of them. In a typical 20/40 game it isn't a surprise to see someone play two gapped, unsuited connectors calling three bets cold. I can think of one guy who did that repeatedly this weekend and he is known to play the 100/200 at the only local club which offers stakes that high. That sort of terrible play would be rare in the games stox and zobags are describing.

Cold calling raises is very common live. As such, (in my experience) it makes less sense to push certain small edges early as bigger edges may be available and apparent post flop.

Re: Applicability of Stox\'s book to mid-level, live LHE (no play conte
 

You're exactly spot-on jfk. My question was really directed at bad lobster, though. I thought he was making the assertion that, if the pot had gotten folded around to me in HJ (or similar position) that stox's "playbook" would therefore apply.

Is that correct lobster?

Re: Applicability of Stox\'s book to mid-level, live LHE (no play conte
 

Learn how to think like stox advocates, learn how to play like he does, then you'll be able to figure out when to apply and when to not apply the conceps. PF charts are a rough guidline, don't live your life by them, just figure out what works and use them as the basis for your stratagy. Learn how to think about what they have and what they think you have. If you want to crush the 40, these are skills you need to have.