in over my head
 

So I find myself sitting in a 1/2 game again, feeling somewhat over-matched aside from two obvious weak spots. The villain here is a TAG, possibly a pro, and probably views me as weak. Earlier he opened on the button, I defended my BB with KTo, c/c a low paired flop, c/r T turn, bet out Q river and won the pot (he called river but did not show his hand -- but he did show his neighbor and the ensuing conversation suggested he had flopped a low pair with a K kicker).

So obviously he's raising with a wide range OTB -- but just how wide can I assume that range to be?

Anyhow we're 7 handed at the moment and he open raises on the button again, SB folds. I have A7o in the BB. Now is this a mandatory 3-bet?

I just call, and the flop is KQxr. Can I just c/f here or am I just giving away money by playing this way?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts.

Re: in over my head
 

standard c/f here

Re: in over my head
 

For a while I was check calling that flop a lot more and while I think it's fine, I think it's better to give up right away on that board vs a competent player.

Re: in over my head
 

Just trying to understand things better:

Is the reason for c/f the flop because he most likely has you dominated w/Ax (x>7) or he hit the flop and you are drawing to 3 outs?

Also I'm curious about 3betting from the bb. How low will you guys go w/the 3bet?

Re: in over my head
 

well if the plan is to c/c c/c c/c then basically 1 sb is going in when you are ahead and 2.5bb are going in when you are behind. that seems like a pretty good reason to c/f already. if thats not the plan then are we c/c flop c/f turn? c/c c/c c/f? the reason you c/f is that even though it seems wimpy is that all the other options are much much worse.

Re: in over my head
 

I don't think you statements go well together. I'm certainly not saying that c/f is not the correct play here, but it seems like your first statement about 1sb when ahead, 2.5bb when behind implies that it will get checked down on the turn/river if you're not ahead. Otherwise you'll be gaining more than 1sb if you call down and are ahead.

However, if this is true (that they will not continue to bet if behind, then it makes for an easy c/c flop, c/f turn because you'll know almost exactly where you are. Again, I'm not arguing against c/f but rather saying that your first statement doesn't seem correct.

Re: in over my head
 

fold.

Re: in over my head
 

the problem is that we dont know if villain is going to give up on the flop, turn or river with his bluffs and we just leave ourselves guessing. i dont know exactly how many bets will go in ahead vs behind but the certain thing is that more bets will go in when behind and our opponent has pretty solid control over when that will happen.

this can be easily turned into an "i know he knows i know" leveling thing where he knows you must have A high to c/c flop. thus if he bets turn he either beats A high or expects us to fold it. thus if we call turn we are announcing we are showdown bound so if he fires river again we must conclude that he expects us to call which means we should fold. but perhaps he knows this so his range also includes bluffs. blah blah blah.

the simple and best way to play it is fold now. flop sucks for our hand and allows him to outplay us easily. i can't imagine calling on this flop. whether we put in .5, 1.5 or 2.5 bets when ahead, the certain thing is that we will put in 2.5 when behind when showdown bound. not gonna waste time to stove but im sure that this hand is not looking good on this flop.

Re: in over my head
 

[ QUOTE ]
the problem is that we dont know if villain is going to give up on the flop, turn or river with his bluffs and we just leave ourselves guessing. i dont know exactly how many bets will go in ahead vs behind but the certain thing is that more bets will go in when behind and our opponent has pretty solid control over when that will happen.

this can be easily turned into an "i know he knows i know" leveling thing where he knows you must have A high to c/c flop. thus if he bets turn he either beats A high or expects us to fold it. thus if we call turn we are announcing we are showdown bound so if he fires river again we must conclude that he expects us to call which means we should fold. but perhaps he knows this so his range also includes bluffs. blah blah blah.

the simple and best way to play it is fold now. flop sucks for our hand and allows him to outplay us easily. i can't imagine calling on this flop. whether we put in .5, 1.5 or 2.5 bets when ahead, the certain thing is that we will put in 2.5 when behind when showdown bound. not gonna waste time to stove but im sure that this hand is not looking good on this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

Re: in over my head
 

[ QUOTE ]
the problem is that we dont know if villain is going to give up on the flop, turn or river with his bluffs and we just leave ourselves guessing. i dont know exactly how many bets will go in ahead vs behind but the certain thing is that more bets will go in when behind and our opponent has pretty solid control over when that will happen.

this can be easily turned into an "i know he knows i know" leveling thing where he knows you must have A high to c/c flop. thus if he bets turn he either beats A high or expects us to fold it. thus if we call turn we are announcing we are showdown bound so if he fires river again we must conclude that he expects us to call which means we should fold. but perhaps he knows this so his range also includes bluffs. blah blah blah.

the simple and best way to play it is fold now. flop sucks for our hand and allows him to outplay us easily. i can't imagine calling on this flop. whether we put in .5, 1.5 or 2.5 bets when ahead, the certain thing is that we will put in 2.5 when behind when showdown bound. not gonna waste time to stove but im sure that this hand is not looking good on this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um check call the flop with hands other than ace high.

Re: in over my head
 

i was gonna mention that but didnt really feel like it bc just getting straight value with pairs or folds when we have gutshots with flop c/r is probably a lot better than the tiny value of disguising flop c/c with A high/bottom pair on this sort of flop.

Re: in over my head
 

assuming button opens 50% of hands and the x is a 2, we have to get owned postflop really bad in order to make folding the flop correct.

That said, this sounds like a spot where it actually is pretty close--the value of "x" matters. Without solving the whole damn problem, I'd guess that in my normal games (I'm a mediocre 15/30ish online player) it would be a bad fold if x<7 or so.

Since I haven't tried to solve it yet, it'd def be best to defer to the experts (who posted before me) on this though.

Re: in over my head
 

fantastic post howmany

Re: in over my head
 

[ QUOTE ]
i was gonna mention that but didnt really feel like it bc just getting straight value with pairs or folds when we have gutshots with flop c/r is probably a lot better than the tiny value of disguising flop c/c with A high/bottom pair on this sort of flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok what do you do when it comes 8-5-2 then with A7 in same situation?

Re: in over my head
 

c/r. sometimes 4bet if they 3bet, sometimes call down, sometimes call and fold later. i would sometimes call on that flop though because i would actually call with an 8 or 5 there bc people are much more willing to fire on the turn after that flop and walk into a c/r. im also much more likely to c/c a draw on that flop in order to c/r turn.

Re: in over my head
 

wow great topic and posts. Good stuff.

Re: in over my head
 

[ QUOTE ]
c/r. sometimes 4bet if they 3bet, sometimes call down, sometimes call and fold later. i would sometimes call on that flop though because i would actually call with an 8 or 5 there bc people are much more willing to fire on the turn after that flop and walk into a c/r. im also much more likely to c/c a draw on that flop in order to c/r turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Finally, someone making sense! lol at c/f. And you call yourselves poo-flingers.

Re: in over my head
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
c/r. sometimes 4bet if they 3bet, sometimes call down, sometimes call and fold later. i would sometimes call on that flop though because i would actually call with an 8 or 5 there bc people are much more willing to fire on the turn after that flop and walk into a c/r. im also much more likely to c/c a draw on that flop in order to c/r turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Finally, someone making sense! lol at c/f. And you call yourselves poo-flingers.

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Ummmmmmm, I'm pretty sure he's not referring to the original hand but rather the post immediately above his. Therefore the consensus is still to c/f the original hand. So much for flinging poo.

Re: in over my head
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
c/r. sometimes 4bet if they 3bet, sometimes call down, sometimes call and fold later. i would sometimes call on that flop though because i would actually call with an 8 or 5 there bc people are much more willing to fire on the turn after that flop and walk into a c/r. im also much more likely to c/c a draw on that flop in order to c/r turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Finally, someone making sense! lol at c/f. And you call yourselves poo-flingers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummmmmmm, I'm pretty sure he's not referring to the original hand but rather the post immediately above his. Therefore the consensus is still to c/f the original hand. So much for flinging poo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then the consensus is a girly-man.

(Seriously, though, while I'm sure c/f is probably right, if this guy thinks you're weak, then he thinks you're probably a bit predictable and perhaps would want to wait for a better spot to take your $$ if you play back at him. I'm guessing that given the turn c/r with TP you did last time, if you c/r the flop here, he'll only call/raise a turn bet with AJ, AT, or a K or Q, and he might insta-fold a small pocket on the flop. I open with a helluva lot more than that on the button against a player I think is weaker than I am. It might be worth it to risk 1BB to pick up a 2.5BB pot right now, or 2BB to pick up a 3BB pot on the turn, against his range. I don't know that he has a K or Q or strong gutshot 60%+ of the time.)

But of course, the sane thing to do is c/f. It's not very fun, though.

Re: in over my head
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just trying to understand things better:

Is the reason for c/f the flop because he most likely has you dominated w/Ax (x>7) or he hit the flop and you are drawing to 3 outs?

Also I'm curious about 3betting from the bb. How low will you guys go w/the 3bet?

[/ QUOTE ]


For about 1 year I employed the Guifre-HiatusOver-Nomar strategy of 3 betting from the SB against the button with anything A6o or better.

After losing enough to fund a couple days of the, ahem, "war" in Iraq, I went back to my old guideline of A9o or better.

TSP

Re: in over my head
 

youre right you are in over your head.

Re: in over my head
 

For about 1 year I employed the Guifre-HiatusOver-Nomar strategy of 3 betting from the SB against the button with anything A6o or better.

After losing enough to fund a couple days of the, ahem, "war" in Iraq, I went back to my old guideline of A9o or better.

TSP

[/ QUOTE ]


I dont think any of us 3 had this rule or even preferred often 3-betting Ax

Re: in over my head
 

"the reason you c/f is that even though it seems wimpy is that all the other options are much much worse."

well said.

as for 3 betting pf it would be a part of any balanced strategy to sometimes do that. maybe 30-50% of the time against an avid button raiser.

Re: in over my head
 

"he knows you must have A high to c/c flop."

no one on the button with anything there is going to think someone is c/cing the flop of KQx with ace high. it looks like a pair (pocket or flopped) or a draw of any sort. so the turn is getting bet again by almost anything from an aggressive player, and the river too often for a c/c x 3 strategy to profitable.

im not really reading through this whole thread, is anyone really advocating c/c three times??

Re: in over my head
 

dont read the whole thread, i have no idea how it is so long bc this hand is incredibly simple.

Re: in over my head
 

[ QUOTE ]
youre right you are in over your head.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but is there anything specific from my post (aside from the title) that you see as particularly wrong/naive? I know you're a good player/poster so I'd genuinely appreciate any further thoughts. Thanks.

Re: in over my head
 

[ QUOTE ]
dont read the whole thread, i have no idea how it is so long bc this hand is incredibly simple.

[/ QUOTE ]

HM,

Can you explain why you would never c/r this flop ever? Seems like some (perhaps small) % would be part of a balanced strategy. A c/r, with a possible turn follow thru, will fold a bunch of low SCs and PPs, no? Or do you think those make up too small a portion of his range?

Re: in over my head
 

[ QUOTE ]
So I find myself sitting in a 1/2 game again, feeling somewhat over-matched aside from two obvious weak spots. The villain here is a TAG, possibly a pro, and probably views me as weak. Earlier he opened on the button, I defended my BB with KTo, c/c a low paired flop, c/r T turn, bet out Q river and won the pot (he called river but did not show his hand -- but he did show his neighbor and the ensuing conversation suggested he had flopped a low pair with a K kicker).

So obviously he's raising with a wide range OTB -- but just how wide can I assume that range to be?

Anyhow we're 7 handed at the moment and he open raises on the button again, SB folds. I have A7o in the BB. Now is this a mandatory 3-bet?

I just call, and the flop is KQxr. Can I just c/f here or am I just giving away money by playing this way?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's no way I'm folding this in a live full ring game where I'm bored out of my mind and can pick up on physical tells. You're ahead of his range 30% of the time so you're getting decent odds. You just have to play well on the turn and river, you can't just be blindly calling down. 1/2 online vs a reg, yeah fold.

Re: in over my head
 

unless you just happen to have a lot of money and dont care if you lose it you shouldnt be playing 100-200 without having already developed a strong plan with significant reasoning behind it as to how and why you would play a hand like this. this sort of situation is a very common one. this is the sort of question that you should figure out in your first 6 months or so of playing low and mid limit hold em. also if youre playing 1-2 you should ideally have read a bunch of books that address this sort of issue (the 2+2 ones are the best) and will show you the sort of thinking you need to be doing in order to beat different sorts of games and opponents. so in short yes your post sounds naive.

Re: in over my head
 

[ QUOTE ]
fantastic post howmany

[/ QUOTE ]

standard

Re: in over my head
 

I think this depends on the TAG. AT/A9 is probably the borderline for me, but if he's more agressive I will stoop to lower aces headsup. KQx is a pretty lousy flop and I'd probably fold A7 here against most TAGs and move on.

If you didn't want to give up then you could check-raise the flop which could reduce the price of getting to showdown.

Re: in over my head
 

[ QUOTE ]
unless you just happen to have a lot of money and dont care if you lose it you shouldnt be playing 100-200 without having already developed a strong plan with significant reasoning behind it as to how and why you would play a hand like this. this sort of situation is a very common one. this is the sort of question that you should figure out in your first 6 months or so of playing low and mid limit hold em. also if youre playing 1-2 you should ideally have read a bunch of books that address this sort of issue (the 2+2 ones are the best) and will show you the sort of thinking you need to be doing in order to beat different sorts of games and opponents. so in short yes your post sounds naive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously, this is silly. Everybody wonders what to do when they're in this situation, and few 1/2 players have "developed a strong plan with significant reasoning behind it as to how and why you would play a hand like this".

Does mikel even play 1/2 anymore or has he given it up since his JJ raise/fold preflop?

Re: in over my head
 

"Does mikel even play 1/2 anymore or has he given it up since his JJ raise/fold preflop?"

so because id mastered the game so thoroughly i gave it up?? now youre the one being silly...

Re: in over my head
 

"Obviously, this is silly. Everybody wonders what to do when they're in this situation, and few 1/2 players have "developed a strong plan with significant reasoning behind it as to how and why you would play a hand like this". "

I've probably spent more time scenario-playing/pokerstoving Ax HU OOP than any other situation in limit holdem.

The answer depends on the aggressive/passive nature of the opponent, his range, etc., so you are always thinking about the right play in the moment, but that isn't the same thing as not having a plan.

Re: in over my head
 

[ QUOTE ]
Everybody wonders what to do when they're in this situation, and few 1/2 players have "developed a strong plan with significant reasoning behind it as to how and why you would play a hand like this".


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I have to agree here. I just pick one of the three actions with semi randomness in this spot. If I had to think about my frequency, I'm not sure I could come up with it offhand.


[ QUOTE ]
also if youre playing 1-2 you should ideally have read a bunch of books that address this sort of issue (the 2+2 ones are the best)

[/ QUOTE ]

What do the 2+2 books say about this spot? I'm genuinely curious, as I haven't read any of them in a while.

Re: in over my head
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Everybody wonders what to do when they're in this situation, and few 1/2 players have "developed a strong plan with significant reasoning behind it as to how and why you would play a hand like this".


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I have to agree here. I just pick one of the three actions with semi randomness in this spot. If I had to think about my frequency, I'm not sure I could come up with it offhand.


[ QUOTE ]
also if youre playing 1-2 you should ideally have read a bunch of books that address this sort of issue (the 2+2 ones are the best)

[/ QUOTE ]

What do the 2+2 books say about this spot? I'm genuinely curious, as I haven't read any of them in a while.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't remember anything about it in Stox's book.

As a side note I specifically remember Harman advocating 3betting A7o pre in this spot in her chapter of super system2.

Re: in over my head
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
dont read the whole thread, i have no idea how it is so long bc this hand is incredibly simple.

[/ QUOTE ]

HM,

Can you explain why you would never c/r this flop ever? Seems like some (perhaps small) % would be part of a balanced strategy. A c/r, with a possible turn follow thru, will fold a bunch of low SCs and PPs, no? Or do you think those make up too small a portion of his range?

[/ QUOTE ]

i dunno, seems intuitively bad to me. no real reason other than that since i basically havent put any effort into analyzing any equity situations in probably a year or so.

Re: in over my head
 

Assuming x<7 and a rb flop, I would c/c. Definitely don't 3-bet preflop FWIW.

Re: in over my head
 

[ QUOTE ]
assuming button opens 50% of hands and the x is a 2, we have to get owned postflop really bad in order to make folding the flop correct.

That said, this sounds like a spot where it actually is pretty close--the value of "x" matters. Without solving the whole damn problem, I'd guess that in my normal games (I'm a mediocre 15/30ish online player) it would be a bad fold if x<7 or so.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

Re: in over my head
 

[ QUOTE ]
c/r. sometimes 4bet if they 3bet, sometimes call down, sometimes call and fold later. i would sometimes call on that flop though because i would actually call with an 8 or 5 there bc people are much more willing to fire on the turn after that flop and walk into a c/r. im also much more likely to c/c a draw on that flop in order to c/r turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Crazy talk!! (You're talking about 8-5-2 right?)