Stud8 - stealing from bring-in
 

Kind of a standard hand, but still somewhat hard to play ... Unknown villain.

Should I fold 4th?
Should I raise 5th?
Betting 6 ok?
What about betting river? I am thinking that I want a fold if he missed a low but made a pair of jacks or something. Can I make him fold a pair of jacks here?

7 Card Stud High-Low ($3/$6), Ante $0,50, Bring-In $1 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.00 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 2: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___completes

4th Street - (3.00 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___calls

5th Street - (2.50 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (4.50 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Hero: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets

River - (6.50 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___checks___calls
Hero: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

Total pot: (8.50 BB - $51)

Re: Stud8 - stealing from bring-in
 

folding 4th would be bad. most people are betting 100% of their range on 4th. also most people defend fairly wide vs a 9 door in steal pos.

i don't like raising 5th. call is good.

6th yep bet.

7th this one's close. it would be an automatic bet with two pair of course. if you do bet, it is for value. you are never folding out a pair of tens or better. if you think he is the type to get stubborn with something like a pair of 7s or 8s i might throw in a bet.

the problem with having unimproved split 9s here on the river is that you have exactly what you are representing. if you had say (JJ)9 instead I'm almost always betting because the strength of your hand is somewhat disguised.

Re: Stud8 - stealing from bring-in
 

I'm not big on stud 8 but it looks like you should be betting 4th here to see where he is at. If he's drawing to a low good if not then he usually folds 5th when he hits the jack. In order to figure out how to go about the hand better a raise on 4th is probably best to see what happens. He could reraise in which case looks like a low, if not maybe a busted hand and if you bet 5th and he raises with a jack up, maybe he has hit jacks in which case you can fold, if he checks it continue betting.

Re: Stud8 - stealing from bring-in
 

in spots like this i mix it up between b/c c/c and c/r on 4th

Re: Stud8 - stealing from bring-in
 

[ QUOTE ]
7th this one's close.

[/ QUOTE ]Not really, betting that sort of hand when checked to on the river is terrible.

It would be a bit different out of position, but not much. It has plenty of showdown value, and very little betting value. All betting accomplishes is diminishing the showdown value. Especially as you lose some bluffs by betting OOP.

Not to mention that you will be betting near 100% of your range if you bet so low on the river. Which is obviously very exploitable when your opponent can dismiss low hands with fairly high precision as well as potentially having stronger high hands.

If you do this sort of thing a lot you've got a big leak in your river game.

Re: Stud8 - stealing from bring-in
 

As I said, my reason for betting was that I thought I could fold out a better hand against some small amount of very weak villains. Maybe this is simply not true, and my reason for betting is bad.

Villain did actually call with a pair of 7s in this hand, so that gives some credibility to djk's value bet.

I really only see him beating us for high here in case he spiked a J or Q on the river (or maybe, unlikely, a straight), and he's not raising with that . So I don't see how this is such a huge leak. I could probably convince myself it's a reasonable value bet.

Re: Stud8 - stealing from bring-in
 

[ QUOTE ]
As I said, my reason for betting was that I thought I could fold out a better hand against some small amount of very weak villains. Maybe this is simply not true, and my reason for betting is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]You'd have to be extremely sure about him being such a player for bluffing to be right.

And you'd be off trying to win every hand as well. If you play perfectly you're going to lose some hands to checking back on the river you'd won had you bet. Trying to pick up those pots is a huge waste of time and energy that's going to turn your game pretty unbalanced and generally have you focusing too much on irrelevant info.

Re: Stud8 - stealing from bring-in
 

i never said i always bet here, but against certain opponents betting could be okay. if you have an aggressive image or if BI is a calling station, then you should bet. a calling station is going to look you up with 1 pair a fair bit.

also based on the texture of his board and the action of the hand so far, it is highly unlikely that villain had >1 pair of nines. thus, villain will usually have < 99 on river, so a bet cannot be all that bad if you think he will make a crying call with a medium pair some % of the time.

Re: Stud8 - stealing from bring-in
 

Playing split Nines in stud/8 has never been my strong suit, but I don't like the bets on sixth and seventh. The other guy probably has a low draw, which he's not going to fold on sixth. Your river bet is going to lose a lot more than it's going to win. He's not folding any low. He's not folding many better high hands--maybe not any. He's probably not calling with too many worse high hands, either.

Re: Stud8 - stealing from bring-in
 

Andy- not betting 6th is horrible. of course he isn't folding, but we have the hand the majority of the time!!

7th- yes betting is v thin and i wouldn't do it that often.