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-   -   deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand. (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=557062)

Ansky 11-29-2007 07:20 AM

deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
Villain plays kind of weird, generally on the tight side but is definitely capable of making a couple moves here and there, but certainly is not spectacular or even a little crazy. We have been 2 tabling for ~ 2 hours at this point iirc, he is up almost 60k and prob feels very much in control. He has not made any huge bluffs yet. He probably check raise bluffs less than most players at this stake, but also does more thin value raises (ie, in this hand i think he can def have Ax on the flop. semi value raise, semi information raise?). He probably thinks i am a little tilty and that i bluff too much/ am a bit of a station.

I have AK w/ the ace of spades.

20k stacks, i raise AK he calls.

fop A33r w/ 1 spade. he checks i bet 500 he makes it 1500 i call.

turn 6 of spades.

he checks. I...

River action to follow after lots and lots of brilliant responses.

IRIVERU 11-29-2007 07:39 AM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
i like checking then calling a riv bet or betting close to pot.....or bet/folding the turn

sauce123 11-29-2007 07:52 AM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
bet/fold 2800 right?

mperich 11-29-2007 07:55 AM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
Did you think about 3balling the flop?

-Mike

Ship Ship McGipp 11-29-2007 07:58 AM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
bet 3100 or so

sounds like he's got a good read on you

DJ Sensei 11-29-2007 09:01 AM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
obv you're floating this flop with a wide range if you think he'll give up on it, so... bet whatever he'll read as a float-steal type thing. would be around 2400 for me probably. call a raise and maybe fold to a river bet at that point.

not sure how i feel about 3betting flop unless he's more aggro than it sounds like, since i doubt he'd 4-bet bluff you. unless he's the type to put you on a big bluff and call down with worse aces.

TheWorstPlayer 11-29-2007 09:33 AM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
i definitely think you have to bet. you built your retardo image for a reason...

HEK 11-29-2007 10:31 AM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
if he has A6 or a three I don't see him going for a double c/r here. After all I assume he's not THAT tricky and can't possibly think you'd bet the turn right? He'd certainly go for value vs you're Ax. Given that he goes for thin value checkraises (range weighted more towards ace lower kicker than anything that beats you) you need to bet a little more than 1/2 pot say 2200, call a c/r and call the river. If he flats the turn then bet the river same %.

If you had AJ I'd check, AQ is close depending on his 3bet preflop frequency.

another thought is that if he was in fact bluff c/ring the flop then you aren't getting a dime more anyway so there's another reason to bet.

HEK 11-29-2007 10:32 AM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
edit: I think 2400 or so would be better.

EC10 11-29-2007 10:47 AM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
given the description and the match so far i'd bet here 100% of the time with AQ+, AJ/AT is a bit closer maybe you can check turn with them. 2500, 5500 on the river if he checks again sounds good. i don't think he'll be folding any ace.

also seems like a good spot for a double re raise on the flop, no?

Stinger88 11-29-2007 12:01 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
I like 3betting the flop a lot here, but calling is cool too. As played it's def a bet, maybe like 2600.

HEK 11-29-2007 12:03 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
[ QUOTE ]
also seems like a good spot for a double re raise on the flop, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

no because villian value c/r's thin so a 3bet will fold out ALL worse hands. Calling the c/r keeps in hands that are drawing to 3 outs.

recallme 11-29-2007 12:14 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
Bet call 2400. and calling flop is def. best line.

Interesting is, do you shove turn if he bets or just call?

*FamilyGuyFan* 11-29-2007 12:23 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
recaaaalmeeeee

Stinger88 11-29-2007 12:26 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
also seems like a good spot for a double re raise on the flop, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

no because villian value c/r's thin so a 3bet will fold out ALL worse hands. Calling the c/r keeps in hands that are drawing to 3 outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

or he thinks you're bluffing and calls the 3bet with Ax

HEK 11-29-2007 12:29 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
also seems like a good spot for a double re raise on the flop, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

no because villian value c/r's thin so a 3bet will fold out ALL worse hands. Calling the c/r keeps in hands that are drawing to 3 outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

or he thinks you're bluffing and calls the 3bet with Ax

[/ QUOTE ]

you really think this is the best flop line?

TheWorstPlayer 11-29-2007 12:35 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
maybe he even rebluffs....?

HEK 11-29-2007 12:37 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
[ QUOTE ]
maybe he even rebluffs....?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
definitely capable of making a couple moves here and there, but certainly is not spectacular or even a little crazy

[/ QUOTE ]

Requin 11-29-2007 12:59 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
Ansky is his line consistent so far with how you think he'd play like AT? What's his line with that type of hand if he chooses to CR the flop, check turn and bet river if turn is checked around? Or do you think he'd fire turn again. Sounds like you've seen his tpnk thin value line before, how did that go down.

ahnuld 11-29-2007 01:41 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
If I bet turn im never folding, its because I expect him to bluff raise my "float". I dont mind checking and calling a blank lead (raise flush ldo). Might make more money that way if a TJQ falls and hell lead or check call assuming a chop/win. Im not sure if you can get two streets of value against a weak ace here, and if you cant checking is obviously better than betting. That coupled with the fact that he very well may have a 3 leads me to check.

TheWorstPlayer 11-29-2007 01:55 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
this deep, i'd probably fold to a turn c/r

Requin 11-29-2007 01:56 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
If we want 1 street of value aginst a weaker ace I think the place to do it is on the turn. Reps a float way better I think, which is all a weaker ace beats obv.

jfish 11-29-2007 02:27 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
i would 3bet flop if he has a wide value range. he is bloating the pot with marginal hands and exploiting by 3betting flop is very reasonable.

on turn i bet $2750 as played, and i think i might shove over a raise. really dont know if im folding this at any point.

Scansion 11-29-2007 04:02 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
So we've come to a consensus of betting the turn for sure, I think that we should play it bet/fold. But if he calls and checks most rivers I'm firing again 90% of the time.

Ansky 11-29-2007 04:19 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
Hard to describe why- but I would say if he check raised turn it's an easy fold the way he had been playing.

Scansion 11-29-2007 04:37 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Hard to describe why- but I would say if he check raised turn it's an easy fold the way he had been playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I'm feeling. Of course I don't know too much about the match but I am a HU player exclusively and this seems like pretty spot-on with what I've come to think of this player based on what you have described.

ahnuld 11-29-2007 04:41 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
[ QUOTE ]
If we want 1 street of value aginst a weaker ace I think the place to do it is on the turn. Reps a float way better I think, which is all a weaker ace beats obv.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I float ill often check back turn because I do that with a weak ace and make a value looking bet on the river.

Ansky 11-29-2007 05:19 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Did you think about 3balling the flop?

-Mike

[/ QUOTE ]

In hindsight i like this better.

I think if this were 25/50 w/ 10k stacks I would have done that. It's not easy to admit but I was prob playing a bit out of my comfort zone so I may have been off my game.

todd1007 11-29-2007 05:53 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
bet 2k on the turn. fold to a c/r.

if he calls turn, you can safely bet 3-5 k on river for value.

if he c/r's river, you have to call if you are getting 3-1 or better

HEK 11-29-2007 05:54 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
someone explain why 3balling the flop is even a good play vs this villian.

Ship Ship McGipp 11-29-2007 06:01 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
[ QUOTE ]
someone explain why 3balling the flop is even a good play vs this villian.

[/ QUOTE ]

it looks super super bluffy on a board this dry and if he's Cring for value with AJ, how can he fold to this

HEK 11-29-2007 06:03 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
someone explain why 3balling the flop is even a good play vs this villian.

[/ QUOTE ]

it looks super super bluffy on a board this dry and if he's Cring for value with AJ, how can he fold to this

[/ QUOTE ]

Wtf do YOU do with AJ? Or how about A 10?

Stinger88 11-29-2007 06:07 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
someone explain why 3balling the flop is even a good play vs this villian.

[/ QUOTE ]

it looks super super bluffy on a board this dry and if he's Cring for value with AJ, how can he fold to this

[/ QUOTE ]

Wtf do YOU do with AJ? Or how about A 10?

[/ QUOTE ]

call and check turn

todd1007 11-29-2007 06:08 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
i dont like 3 betting the flop. by just calling his raise, you can represent a much wider range of weaker hands (Acerag, 99 - kk), and you can extract more from him. if you three bet and he pushes, i think you have to muck it. if he he calls your 3 bet on the flop, what is our action on the turn? fold if he pot leads on the turn? can we bet the turn if he checks? if we do bet, how much can we bet and still get him to call? i would prefer 3 betting against an aggro player, but i think he gets away from this as described, esp if he is up in the match.

HEK 11-29-2007 06:13 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
i'm sorry but 3betting the flop is frigging horrible with these stacks.

Ship Ship McGipp 11-29-2007 06:21 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
someone explain why 3balling the flop is even a good play vs this villian.

[/ QUOTE ]

it looks super super bluffy on a board this dry and if he's Cring for value with AJ, how can he fold to this

[/ QUOTE ]

Wtf do YOU do with AJ? Or how about A 10?

[/ QUOTE ]

i call flop and check turn at least 90% of the time.

this guy does not necssarily have to do that, and us 3-betting should give away kind of a nuts:air idea with the ratio heavily weighted towards air. additionally, calling looks stronger than 3-betting, and he's probably morelikely to bluff shove with 45 here than he is to fire multiple bullets on the turn and the river.

also, COMPLETELY irrelevant what i would do, there's liek a 60%+ chance that this guy can just raise AT or any ace for value here, or raise it if he's got Ax with no future plan, he's a random as far as i know.

Ship Ship McGipp 11-29-2007 06:22 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
what i'm saying is taht i can't imagine it not being viable to 3-bet to 3450 once in a while

Apathy 11-29-2007 06:52 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
[ QUOTE ]
what i'm saying is taht i can't imagine it not being viable to 3-bet to 3450 once in a while

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah but I wouldnt do it against people who dont bluff raise as much as most in this level as it says in the OP. Calling has to be the best flop play.

Im good with betting the turn but only if you can fold happily to the check raise because if you really don't know what to do betting is bad. Besides, its unlikely you get two more streets of value out of a majority of his range, and you can possibly catch some river bluffs as well.

mperich 11-29-2007 07:27 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
HEK I dont understand. So youre saying if we 3b the flop he never calls with a worse hand? So he folds like 90% of his range here? Hmm maybe you should be 3b bluffing more in this spot then. Like everytime someone crs. The only reason i WOULDNT 3b here is if I think he will fire some more shells with hands like 45 etc. But on a board this dry he will prolly give up with his air bluffs (or he should), so I think 3b the flop has more value. Also, I think Ive seen ansky post that he does 3ball air sometimes on flops vs ppl who raise the flop a lot, so he prolly can get a worse hand to call here. One more thing, I think it was jfish who said that he is bloating pots oop with marginal hands and we need to punish him for that. It will make him easier to play against in the future because he will be more passive with his ace hands in the future, thus narrowing his CR range, so we can play better in the big pots.

-Mike

-Mike

imabigdeal 11-29-2007 08:12 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
i think flop is fine, now i bet turn... ansky i watched some of this match and agree that w/ the way it was going, if he c/r turn you should prob get away from this. anyhow that hand where you flopped top set and he rivered the straight was just sick... is that the same guy on stars that is primarily a MTT guy?


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