Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

A few years back the City of Scottsdale installed cameras at certain intersections to take pictures of red light runners so they could ticket them. Some time later a few towns in the Phoenix area started using photo radar vans that they would park here and there to catch speeders. When someone is speeding past one it'll take a picture of the driver and the license plate and you get a ticket in the mail. My mom (75 at the time got one and she had to go to the 6 hours traffic class to have the ticket expunged. She's still pissed) In the last few weeks Scottsdale has installed 2 permanent radar detection cameras on the main road that I use and it is the last straw for me. If I could get away with it I'd go 'V for Vendetta' on their ass and cut them down with a chain saw.

I can't stop on the road to take pictures of them but I found this picture which is the best I could do:

http://www.redflex.com.au/traffic/images/Ad_27.jpg

The one on the road I drive has 2 goggle eyed lights w/ the radar and cameras to take your picture and there is a pole up the road before it to take a pic of your license plate. These things make my blood boil. So, ok you say, I know where they are at least but the sneaks have been sticking a mobile photo radar van in between them for when you speed back up so they can get you that way too. These things were very controversial when they were first installed but the people (sheep that they are) have given up protesting.

Q: You got these things where you live?

Poll:

Re: Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

You couldn't speed if you wanted to around here.

Re: Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

As an avid speeder, I loathe them, but I fail to see how they're a "bad idea," especially from a law enforcement perspective.

There was some controversy around here a few years back when it was discovered they had shortened the length of certain yellow lights at around the same time they installed red light cameras at those same intersections. Now THAT is pretty lame and scumbaggish. Much uproar ensued and the yellow light length was switched back.

Re: Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

hate those [censored] things, [censored] fascist [censored]. wtf like i want to pay for cameras everywhere so johnny [censored] law can collect more ticket revenue to buy himself a new SWAT van. what a [censored] waste of money.

Re: Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

I am 100% in favor of camera enforcement for red light runners. You azzholes that run red lights are a menace to society and I'm not kidding.

I do not favor the system for catching speeding drivers.

Re: Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

They're being challenged in the Iowa State Supreme Court because of the way they're writing the tickets. I don't remember what exactly the issue was, but something like varying the amount of the ticket and not following state guidelines on the price of the ticket. I worked as an intern in the traffic department the year they were installing them and the city engineer was excited about it. The one problem I remember him not liking about them was that they can't be considered a moving violation since there is no actual cop present, it was more like a parking ticket than a speeding ticket so he thought a lot of people, if they ever knew that, wouldn't pay them.

Re: Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

Is this a new thing in the US?

We've had them in the UK for ages, they're everywhere.

We also have ones that measure you're average speed between two points, so that you can't 'slow down for the camera' then speed up again immediately after.

Most satnavs warn you when a camera is up ahead though.

Also, am i correct in thinking that if caught speeding in america you just get fined/go on a speeding course? Or do you get points on your license as well? Over here you get 3 points every time you get caught speeding, collect 12 points and get your license taken away.

Re: Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am 100% in favor of camera enforcement for red light runners. You azzholes that run red lights are a menace to society and I'm not kidding.

I do not favor the system for catching speeding drivers.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree, this makes the most sense. running red lights is wayyy worse than speeding as far as being dangerous to yourself and more importantly others.

Re: Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

I'm not a big fan of speed cameras. I don't mind the idea so much if they are set to write a ticket 15-20 mph over speed limit (excessive speeding).

Red Light cameras are fine (I'll say this until I get my first ticket in a 'marginal' situation)

Re: Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

My main problem with these is that they're run by a for profit company.

It's essentially free money for the police. The company owns, installs, maintains the cameras. They handle the ticketing and billing.

They deduct a "small" monthy fee, rent on the cameras, and write a check to the police.

Everyone wins here but the people.

Re: Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

We've got the camera that snaps a shot of the intersection after every red light (at certain intersections...maybe 2% of them in the whole city...main ones)

I hate them. It's distracting seeing a flash go off, and I've already noticed it's made me drive less safe by stopping quickly on a yellow/red I'd otherwise roll through, causing nobody harm. Especially when the road is wet. Supposedly it captures your license plate and just mails you a bill. Effed up, man.

Re: Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

Last time I was in Perth, Australia, (which was over five years ago), there were 450 speed cameras for a million and a half inhabitants. We've had the red light cameras since about 1985 or something.

One of the reasons that I don't live there anymore.

Re: Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

I don't mind them. We have tons where I live and I have never got a ticket, and I speed pretty much all the time. They are easy to spot IMO. I've never had a problem with a redlight camera but I also don't run red lights. FWIW the cameras in my hood take two pictures, you have to be seen entering the intersection on a red light to get a ticket. Pretty easy to avoid.

Re: Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

I'm in favor of the red-light cameras. In Los Angeles it's a pretty good idea to wait three seconds after your light turns green because it's likely some douchebag is going to plow through the intersection. Sometimes they even honk, like "Lookout, here I come!" In fact, I'd be OK if they had lasers on the tops of poles that just vaporized those [censored] on sight.

The speeding ones sound like a worse idea, but that's probably because I speed. Yeah, I guess I approve of these too. Driving rules exist for a reason, I think everybody should just follow the same rules.

Re: Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

A few of the intersections in Beaverton have them. We also have the police radar vans.

I do find the notion of a camera enforcing the law somewhat disturbing, but these things seem to be a major deterent for people running red lights, so thats a good thing.

I would be happy if they installed these things, detered people because of their presence, but were secretly turned off.

Re: Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

This might be a rumor, but I heard that some states were trying to figure out a way that they can give people who use EZ PASS speeding tickets based on the amount of time between toll plazas. So if you take the speed limit multiplied by the distance and you make it there sooner, they know you must have been speeding.

I would be fine with these cameras if they put a high threshold, like way above the speed limit, so that you're only getting the dangerous speeders. Obviously, with an automated system, you could just be getting everyone that goes over, but I think like 20-25 over might make sense.

I drive 15mph over on pretty much every road, but thats consistent with what everyone else drives.


Twice last week I was pulled over on Comm. Ave in Boston in one of those cattle roundups. [censored] annoying. There is a red light at the top of a hill, then there is another hill right after. So when the light turns green you are going down a hill which causes you to naturally speed up, and you are approaching another hill, so you speed up to prepare for the hill. The cop waits in that little valley, and right as the light turns green, and the cars take off, he comes from behind a row of parked cars, stands in the middle of the road, and makes all 4-6 cars pull over. Comm Ave. out by BC is like a four lane divided highway, and the posted limit is [censored] 30. Ugh.

Re: Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

[ QUOTE ]
My main problem with these is that they're run by a for profit company.

It's essentially free money for the police. The company owns, installs, maintains the cameras. They handle the ticketing and billing.

They deduct a "small" monthy fee, rent on the cameras, and write a check to the police.


[/ QUOTE ]

So? The camera/ticketing/billing company handles the technology and what-not so the police can do their thing. It would be silly for the police to devote their own resources towards running traffic cameras when they can hire a 3rd party to do it.

Re: Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

Other than the fact that they're 100% anti-Constitutional, the cameras are fine.

One of the first places they used them was in Ft Collins, CO, about 15 years ago. They used to issue points and fines, but now I think the states can only issue fines. The company that makes the vans gets something like 20% of the money. This should tell you that these things are only about generating revenue, and not about the law. A speeding tax enforced in an anonymous fashion - not very American.

Re: Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

There's one at an intersection right by my office and other places in Seattle.

I'm torn because I agree with sucker for the most part, but as somebody who crosses at this intersection daily, I'm all for anything that deters people from acting like idiots in cars.

Re: Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Other than the fact that they're 100% anti-Constitutional, the cameras are fine.


[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. Explain where these are prohibited in the Constitution.

Re: Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

They're not unconstitutional.

It's that, depending on the type of infraction, service of the Summons by mail is not (or may not be) constitutional.

My recollection is that the courts in Arizona have held that service by mail of a Summons resulting from speeding caught by a camera is NOT VALID. While that may not mean much to folks who live in Arizona, who probably will be tracked down when they fail to answer the mailed summons (and who probably will face added penalties for refusing to cooperate with the State's "attempt to minimize expenses"), those of us who live outside of Arizona probably can safely take one of these that we receive in the mail and trash it.

Re: Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

[ QUOTE ]
My main problem with these is that they're run by a for profit company.

It's essentially free money for the police. The company owns, installs, maintains the cameras. They handle the ticketing and billing.


They deduct a "small" monthy fee, rent on the cameras, and write a check to the police.

Everyone wins here but the people.

[/ QUOTE ]

This guy is absolutely spot on. As was Boris'. I am totally fine with red light cameras, but speeding cameras make me want to fly to scottsdale and bring a chainsaw.

Also, while Sucker is right about the cameras just being a cash grab for businesses, we should think that police who sit behind a bush catching speeders all day are pretty much just a cash grab without a care in the world for actual safety.

Also, a private company writing us tickets is CERTAINLY unconstitutional. What is the path of appeals against a private company who only wants money?

Re: Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

police are worse vultures than poker players. unless these speeding cameras are posted in areas where there's pedestrians around, it's probably just a naked cash grab.

red light cameras i'm in favor of, although i still don't know how they work in gridlock-ish traffic.

Re: Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

I think the anger in this thread against the devices is terribly misguided. If you want to go faster than the speed limit, you should oppose the level of the speed limit not the violation detection device.

Re: Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think the anger in this thread against the devices is terribly misguided. If you want to go faster than the speed limit, you should oppose the level of the speed limit not the violation detection device.

[/ QUOTE ]

those aren't changing.

i can watch for cops - i can't watch for these guns.

Re: Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

Do these things give leeway like actual cops, or do they ticket at 1mph over the limit?

Re: Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

Howard,

If you're talking about the ones on Shea Blvd., wow those are well disguised. I went out to Fountain Hills to golf a couple of weeks ago and a friend told me he got snapped by those. I noticed them on the way back though.

It's in a 50 MPH limit, is a six lane road with a continuous median, there's no retail or commercial or other reasons for cars entering the road for quite a stretch in either direction. In other words, a really unlikely place for an accident to happen. So this is not a deterrent, it's a cash grab plain and simple.

Red light cameras yeah, who isn't for those? BUT greedy cities will set them up not at dangerous intersections, but at intersections where they can make the most money.

EXAMPLE 1: they'll set them up to catch people rolling through left turn arrows because that's a very common thing. It's also a very low-risk thing as opposing traffic is looking right at you and isn't going to go until you've cleared.

EXAMPLE 2: the "intersection" starts WAY later than most people think. It's certainly not the end of the crosswalk. In fact, crosswalks are sometimes set well back from the intersection for safety purposes. If you look to see where the sensors are set, you may be surprised.

Bottom line, the vast majority of accidents happen at intersections, so enforcing laws at them is fine, but photo radar is pure greed, and even a lot of the cities running the red light cameras are more interested in revenue than safety.

Re: Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

When a cop gives you a ticket, you have the right to a trial. You can cross-examine the cop, and look for a hole in the chain of evidence (did he follow proper procedure, is he competent in the operation of radar, is the radar accurate, can he prove the radar is accurate, etc).

I can't imagine anyone being found guilty in a trial where the evidence was presented by a machine. If the defense challenges the accuracy of the measuring device (the radar), the burden is on the prosecution to PROVE that the device is accurate. This means calling a witness who can be cross-examined.

No witness, no case.

Amiright?

Re: Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

Oh yeah, I also want to add that I liberally use cruise control in cities with photo radar. So should all of you. I have the habit of keeping it in the 5-10 over range, but if not paying attention can drift a bit faster, so if traffic is light enough put it in cruise and don't worry.

Howard, did you realize that I think it's been 20 years now since photo radar was introduced, and I believe it was here in Paradise Valley? Since that time almost every suburb of Phoenix has implemented photo & red light systems. This is why I give huge props to the City of Phoenix for only using photo radar in school zones (where you should never be speeding anyway) and only using red light running cameras at the intersections that have proven the most dangerous.

And yeah, I was back in Iowa recently and it was awesome to see all their cameras shut down, at least for now. I know for a fact those companies get a huge chunk of change for each ticket - I guess it would vary from contract to contract, but the number I have typically heard is 50%. So when you get a $125 ticket in Scottsdale, the company is making $60 off your back. Sweet, huh?

Re: Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

You guys should be more alarmed by these things. Our government using cameras and radar detectors to get people in trouble. Our civil liberties are being [censored] on left and right. You guys are right, these cameras are all about money.

Re: Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

[ QUOTE ]
You guys should be more alarmed by these things. Our government using cameras and radar detectors to get people in trouble. Our civil liberties are being [censored] on left and right. You guys are right, these cameras are all about money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh. When these cameras are used for something other than catching people who are already breaking the law, I'll get up in arms. I'm pretty confident that Big Brother isn't spying on the corner of Roosevelt and 45th.

Re: Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You guys should be more alarmed by these things. Our government using cameras and radar detectors to get people in trouble. Our civil liberties are being [censored] on left and right. You guys are right, these cameras are all about money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh. When these cameras are used for something other than catching people who are already breaking the law, I'll get up in arms. I'm pretty confident that Big Brother isn't spying on the corner of Roosevelt and 45th.

[/ QUOTE ]

HAHA, they don't even need a camera at Roosevelt and 45th to spy on you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O61YfvPZGJs

Got to love our patriot act.

Re: Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Howard,

If you're talking about the ones on Shea Blvd., wow those are well disguised.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those are the ones. The 'funny' part is that there are also tiny warning signs that say something like 'speed is radar enforced' before them. Few people are going to notice those signs (and certainly not at night). Residents like me who know where they are aren't going to get ticketed much but there are a 'gabillion' out-of-towners who're headed out that way to golf that are going to get caught. Plus, the picture taking pole looks just plain evil, like something out of the Terminator.

btw: I don't mind the red light cameras. I included them to present the progression of events. However, what is considered red light running (strictly interpreted) would surprise many people and a driver can get ticketed for something they (and everybody else) has been doing for years w/o realizing was illegal.

Re: Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

[ QUOTE ]
what is considered red light running (strictly interpreted) would surprise many people and a driver can get ticketed for something they (and everybody else) has been doing for years w/o realizing was illegal.

[/ QUOTE ]
Right. I really wish my post upthread was shorter because I feel a lot of people are going to just skip it (even more than they'd normally skip my posts) but it contains relevant points.

A real-life example would be the intersection of Scottsdale & Thomas Roads. This is a mammoth intersection - six lanes each way, dual left turn bays in all directions, right turn lanes. So the crosswalks are pulled back and the sensors that determine the start of the true intersection are WAY out there, like probably a dozen feet or more past the crosswalk.

Also, cities will put "red light running enforced" signs in all four directions when they are only enforcing one direction. Minor nit but it annoys me anyway for some reason.

Re: Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

tuq:

perhaps i'm an idiot, but isn't those sensors being back farther a benefit to drivers? or do they operate coming the other way - i.e. if i go straight through an intersection, the sensor catches me on the way in, and on the way out the light has just turned red - am i getting a ticket?

Re: Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

Triumph,

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking but I believe the sequence is:

- light turns red
- if the sensors (called loop detectors) on the ground register the pressure equivalent to a vehicle it initiates the photo sequence
- smile

So no, the farther out in the intersection/past the crosswalk it is, the worse it is for the driver.

Again, I have no problem with the concept of red light running photo technology, just its improper deployment by some municipalities.

Re: Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am 100% in favor of camera enforcement for red light runners. You azzholes that run red lights are a menace to society and I'm not kidding.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody blatantly blows through stale red lights at crowded intersections.

People run red lights by going through a yellow light .5 second late, or by stopping at a red light in the middle of the night with no cars in sight and then just going through it.

Neither of these actions are more dangerous than speeding.

Re: Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am 100% in favor of camera enforcement for red light runners. You azzholes that run red lights are a menace to society and I'm not kidding.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody blatantly blows through stale red lights at crowded intersections.

People run red lights by going through a yellow light .5 second late, or by stopping at a red light in the middle of the night with no cars in sight and then just going through it.

Neither of these actions are more dangerous than speeding.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're really wrong. sometimes it's a lot longer than .5 seconds.

Re: Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

It doesn't even really matter, the time between the red light and the opposite green light is 2 seconds in my area. which means you have about 3 seconds before it gets dangerous. 3 seconds is a really really long time when you're going 40mph.

If you run a red when it's been stale for 3 seconds, take your ticket.

I have two tickets this summer for just missing yellows at midnight on deserted roads in the middle of the week, complete [censored] [censored], not unsafe at all, and if there's a [censored] machine thats automating the ticket - ... makes me really [censored] mad.

Re: Photo radar & speed cameras: Are they in your town? (pic)
 

[ QUOTE ]
The one problem I remember him not liking about them was that they can't be considered a moving violation since there is no actual cop present, it was more like a parking ticket than a speeding ticket so he thought a lot of people, if they ever knew that, wouldn't pay them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I got one of these at a red light in Chicago. They must not be able to make them a moving violation here either, because my insurance didn't go up and I was able to just get a sticker on the back of my driver's license to renew it since I'm a "Safe Driver" without a moving violation in the last four years.