Prelim review of Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells
 

I am about 80 pages in and so far I am extremely disappointed. Most of the text so far has been re-writes of Caro's book and a few liberally borrowed tells from other players published work-ie Super/System and Ciaffone's "Improve Your Poker". Not much original or uniquely useful info in the first 80 pages. Also I liked Caro's play by play with pictures approach more than straight text. On an Amazon scale of 1-5 it gets a 2. If you are a poker book fanatic and have read them you will probably have most of what this book contains. I will give an update if the remainder of the book turns more positive or useful.

Re: Prelim review of Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am about 80 pages in and so far I am extremely disappointed. Most of the text so far has been re-writes of Caro's book and a few liberally borrowed tells from other players published work-ie Super/System and Ciaffone's "Improve Your Poker". Not much original or uniquely useful info in the first 80 pages. Also I liked Caro's play by play with pictures approach more than straight text. On an Amazon scale of 1-5 it gets a 2. If you are a poker book fanatic and have read them you will probably have most of what this book contains. I will give an update if the remainder of the book turns more positive or useful.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I asked how he improved upon or differed from Caro, and he basically said he uses holdem examples instread of draw, that told me there is little new ground covered here. Your post seems to confirm that.

Keep us posted if you find anything original.

Re: Prelim review of Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells
 

Who wrote this book?

(never mind- Randy Burgess and others, according to Amazon)

Re: Prelim review of Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells
 

I'm sick of this book already just from the bickering in the other thread.

Re: Prelim review of Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells
 

Yeah, I thumbed through this book thinking it might have some new material, and i turned to one page in the book , and thought i picked up a thinner copy of Caros hah. I had double check the cover 3 times after reading like 4 pages.

Re: Prelim review of Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells
 

As the author of this book, I just wanted to post the only published review so far of the book, by Howard Schwartz of the Gambler's Bookstore, here it is in it's entirety (I edited out a section in the beginning about another book he reviews later in the same column):



Mike Caro is the undisputed pioneer in explaining poker tells -- what they are and how they can be profitable in keeping a poker face and reading opponents. Now comes the Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells subtitled Devastate Opponents by Reading Body Language, Table Talk, Chip Moves and Much More and written by Randy Burgess with Carl Baldassarre (197 pages, paperbound, $16.95)....
The poker book on tells does cover limit and no-limit poker among its 10 chapters (illustrated). In it, the authors make a valid point about Caro's original book of tells -- it was written before hold'em became the hottest game, when draw poker or stud was popular, which means much has changed. Plus, another generation or two of players have honed their camouflage skills behind sunglasses, hoods, funny eyeglasses and stone-cold stares to counter reads by opponents so players have to develop new skills.

This is a solid, easy read, cutting away to logic quickly and offering excellent examples of situations you're likely to encounter, while reviewing what some of the best players in the business have said about the value of tells.

The authors get specific in detailing what to look for among Asian players, women, the elderly, those with jewelry or tattoos, plus what cues are exhibited by bad players. The book should help improve your own game, whether a beginner or hard core pro and to smooth out your own table etiquette while disguising your mode of play

Re: Prelim review of Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells
 

[ QUOTE ]
while reviewing what some of the best players in the business have said about the value of tells.


[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you included my comments which are that tells have a little bit of value but that's it.

MM

Re: Prelim review of Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells
 

I would not count you among "the best players in the business". Do you feel you are?

Re: Prelim review of Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells
 

[ QUOTE ]
those with jewelry or tattoos,

[/ QUOTE ]

I have not read the book yet, but I hope the above part is not similar to the Ken Warren advice about people with tatoos.

Re: Prelim review of Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells
 

[ QUOTE ]
As the author of this book, I just wanted to post the only published review so far of the book, by Howard Schwartz of the Gambler's Bookstore...

[/ QUOTE ]
This review reminds me of a broker’s stock tip. The broker only makes money when you buy something, so you’ll never see a negative review. Every stock is a winner, just like every book review by Howard is a winner. I would view a positive review from your own mother to be more legitimate.

Re: Prelim review of Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hope you included my comments which are that tells have a little bit of value but that's it.

MM

[/ QUOTE ]

I have this book, and while it wasn't a quote attributed to anyone, it states clearly that tells only have a small value and only if it causes you to act differently than you would have without the tell.

I don't have Caro's book, I had been meaning to pick it up but saw this book recommended by someone at another forum I read and got it instead. I feel like it was a worthy buy. Maybe this book has more value to those that don't have Caro's book.

Re: Prelim review of Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would not count you among "the best players in the business". Do you feel you are?

[/ QUOTE ]

The books Mason's written and published are among the best in the business, and have been for many years. Where do you see yourself compared to Mason in this area?

As far as playing, where do you see yourself as a player? Have the tell's you've written about made you many millions from playing, or are you winning money based on the mathematical and strategic concepts that Mason and David put in print for you to learn from many years ago?

Re: Prelim review of Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells
 

One of the things that makes our book valuable is that we discuss the need to use tells in the context of sound strategic play and hand-reading based on betting patterns and game situations. Those things are all more important than tells. However we do believe that tells have more value than many players believe for one important reason: they occur with great frequency in live play. In low limit games (through 10-20), I can spot tells on almost every hand. So while you can only use them to change your play rarely, because they occur so frequently there are still a relatively large number of occaisions you'll be able to gain or save a bet, or even sometimes win an entire pot. We devote a fair bit of space to discussing the value of tells, and how to use them in context.

Here's a recent example from a 1-5 stud game I play in, with a 1-10 limit on the river. An aggressive, thinking player has been leading the betting with a garbage board. I have jacks up which don't improve on the river and he bets into me and two other players. Both of them fold. Now it's on me. His betting throughout the hand, and willingness to max bet the river into three players indicates strength. But the pot is $100+, so I'm getting 10-1 closing the action on a call, and this player is capable of a bluff. So I asked him if he wanted a call, and he gave me a very relaxed answer. That final tell turned a call into a fold for me. In this particular hand, he showed his cards and he did, indeed, have a concealed full house (he'd made hidden trips on fifth and filled on the river).

While tells are less frequent at higher levels, they can also be more valuable. Many top players look for tells, and make considerable efforts to avoid giving off tells themselves.

I am in no way disparaging the quality of many of the 2+2 books by questioning Mason's appearing to group himself with the best players in the game. I don't think he's ever been considered more than a solid mid-limit pro, but there may be information here I'm not aware of.

Re: Prelim review of Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells
 

Here's a recent example from a 1-5 stud game I play in, with a 1-10 limit on the river. An aggressive, thinking player has been leading the betting with a garbage board. I have jacks up which don't improve on the river and he bets into me and two other players. Both of them fold. Now it's on me. His betting throughout the hand, and willingness to max bet the river into three players indicates strength. But the pot is $100+, so I'm getting 10-1 closing the action on a call, and this player is capable of a bluff. So I asked him if he wanted a call, and he gave me a very relaxed answer. That final tell turned a call into a fold for me. In this particular hand, he showed his cards and he did, indeed, have a concealed full house (he'd made hidden trips on fifth and filled on the river).

Without a description of the other 2 players, the villians thoughts on his opponents, all the boards and the action leading up to 7th, it's hard to comment on the hand, but a thinking player bets the max into 3 other players on 7th with a garbage board and you're leaning towards a call? The problem I have is that you reccomend folding from the confident answer your opponent gives to your question, rather than all the more pertinent factors leading up to your decision.

While tells are less frequent at higher levels, they can also be more valuable. Many top players look for tells, and make considerable efforts to avoid giving off tells themselves.

More pro's spew BS about tells to give themselves an aura of greatness than for any other reason.

Re: Prelim review of Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a recent example from a 1-5 stud game I play in, with a 1-10 limit on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

The last game I played in was a $100-$200 hold 'em. Does that make me one of "the players in the business?"

[ QUOTE ]
An aggressive, thinking player has been leading the betting with a garbage board. I have jacks up which don't improve on the river and he bets into me and two other players. Both of them fold. Now it's on me. His betting throughout the hand, and willingness to max bet the river into three players indicates strength. But the pot is $100+, so I'm getting 10-1 closing the action on a call, and this player is capable of a bluff. So I asked him if he wanted a call, and he gave me a very relaxed answer. That final tell turned a call into a fold for me. In this particular hand, he showed his cards and he did, indeed, have a concealed full house (he'd made hidden trips on fifth and filled on the river).


[/ QUOTE ]

There are strategic reasons why you fold here everytime and the tell, assuming it is accurate, should have no value.

MM

Re: Prelim review of Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells
 

"The last game I played in was a $100-$200 hold 'em. Does that make me one of "the players in the business?"

No.

Re: Prelim review of Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells
 

[ QUOTE ]
The last game I played in was a $100-$200 hold 'em. Does that make me one of "the players in the business?"



[/ QUOTE ]

You are the Gran Poohbah and he is the Grand poopoo. Don't even bother with someone that rehashed another book and wants to believe he has the chops. Hell he plays lower than me and I suck.

Re: Prelim review of Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The last game I played in was a $100-$200 hold 'em. Does that make me one of "the players in the business?"



[/ QUOTE ]

You are the Gran Poohbah and he is the Grand poopoo. Don't even bother with someone that rehashed another book and wants to believe he has the chops. Hell he plays lower than me and I suck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you read the book? How familiar are you with his "chops"? I love the 2+2 texts as much as anyone here - I've already preordered the upcoming Harrington and Sklansky/Miller books - but I don't feel the need to blindly trash any new book that comes along.

Read the book and then offer your critique. Don't be such a homer.

Re: Prelim review of Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells
 

[ QUOTE ]
Have you read the book? How familiar are you with his "chops"? I love the 2+2 texts as much as anyone here - I've already preordered the upcoming Harrington and Sklansky/Miller books - but I don't feel the need to blindly trash any new book that comes along.

Read the book and then offer your critique. Don't be such a homer.

[/ QUOTE ]

He says Mason doesn't play big then gives an example from 1-5 stud, that told me plenty.

How many posters have to say it is a rehash of Mike Caro before I believe them? Not many.

What is the point of the Books & Publications forum? I believe it is to share opinions about the quality of books available so we don't go buy junk. A couple of negative reviews that go unchallenged is suffcient evidence for me.

WTF is a homer? I don't watch many cartoons so I might have to dumb down a little so I can follow your conversation.

Re: Prelim review of Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells
 

Heh. The fact that you instinctively assumed a "homer" was cartoon related makes your "dumbing things down" comment kind of silly. (C'mon, admit it. You tossed out the cartoon reference because you know Homer is a Simpsons character. It's ok, I like that show too.)

Actually a "homer" refers to a sports fan who automatically roots for and struggles to find any fault with their home team - even though their deficiencies are glaringly obvious to the rest of the world.

Anyhow my point was only that you should take a look at the book yourself (or wait for more reviews to roll in) before defaulting to the 2+2 party line. There have been very few reviews of this book posted thus far. In this thread I read 2 negative (The OP and Texibus) and 2 fairly positive (Howard Schwartz of the Gambler's Bookstore and jct).

I think you had an emotional reponse to the authors negative attitude towards Mason as opposed to any actual feelings about the book itself.

The book may very well be terrible and just a lazy rehash of Caro. We shall see.

Re: Prelim review of Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells
 

[ QUOTE ]
He says Mason doesn't play big then gives an example from 1-5 stud, that told me plenty.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, those two statements are not mutually inconstent.

Also, I don't see where he said Mason doesn't play big.

Re: Prelim review of Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells
 

[ QUOTE ]
The last game I played in was a $100-$200 hold 'em. Does that make me one of "the players in the business?"

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure if you made a typo or a read-o, but it appears to be one or the other.

Re: Prelim review of Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells
 

[ QUOTE ]


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The last game I played in was a $100-$200 hold 'em. Does that make me one of "the players in the business?"


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I'm not sure if you made a typo or a read-o, but it appears to be one or the other.


[/ QUOTE ]

In the authors reply to Mason

[ QUOTE ]
I would not count you among "the best players in the business". Do you feel you are?


[/ QUOTE ]

The best players normally play in bigger games. Mason must have made a read error also because he replied with the size of his most recent game. I can read pretty good at a third grade level.

I am guessing you are friends with the author because you are being the homer.

The OP says it is a rehash of Caro, Binions spoke to the author about the book and left with a negative impression. I have forgotten the screen name of the other Sup Bro that didn't like it and apparently there was a previous thread, that I missed, that wasn't exactly a glowing review.

The jury has returned a verdict and it is obvious that the Author, knocked of a book with little original content to make a fast buck from the poker boom. I think that was a very good idea and I hope he makes a lot of money but coming into Mason's backyard and saying Mason isn't a good player is very bad manners.

If the book is so good, why can't the Author defend it on its own merits and not resort to attacking Mason?

When he says Mason isn't one of the best players in the business and then gives a hand example from a $1-5 Stud game, I was ROFLMAO and if I had been taking a drink at the time, dieat soda would have spewed all over my computer.

Re: Prelim review of Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells
 

I don't know any of the posters in this thread personally, nor have I ever spoken, pm'd or emailed any.

To say a book is a "lazy rehash of Caro" when you have not read it, and none of the negative posters have either (one posted based on the first 80 pages, the other flipped through in a bookstore). The only poster who read the whole book, as far as I can tell, was jct. Now this book is not primarily aimed at experts or high stakes players -- it's a total guide to tells for lower stakes and new players, with some content/perspective more advanced players may also find new and interesting. As a low stakes player myself, I'd not presume to write an expert level book. Nor do I feel that tells is a topic that would lend itself to such a book. What I feel we have written is an excellent overview of tells, that looks at their general bases in human behavior, how they fit with strategy, betting patterns etc., and then some specific examples and anecdotes from well-known players.

If you haven't read the book, it's simply out of line to give it a negative review -- or to act like a definitive verdict has been rendered.

Re: Prelim review of Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells
 

[ QUOTE ]
...but coming into Mason's backyard and saying Mason isn't a good player is very bad manners.

...

If the book is so good, why can't the Author defend it on its own merits and not resort to attacking Mason?

When he says Mason isn't one of the best players in the business and then gives a hand example from a $1-5 Stud game, I was ROFLMAO and if I had been taking a drink at the time, dieat soda would have spewed all over my computer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think mrbaa was attacking mason or saying mason isn't a good player. He just replied that he doesn't feel that Mason is one of the best players in the game and asked if mason considers himself to be. I don't see anything wrong with that. And the stakes that mrbaa plays at should have no bearing on whether mason is or isn't one of the best players in the game. I guess it all depends on how you define the term, if you mean top 10, 100 or what.

Also, as far as defending the book based on its merits, the only real criticism of the book itself seems to be that it was a rehashing of caro's book, and the author responded to it. Another criticism was that tells don't have much value, and he responded to that as well. He also pasted a positive review of the book and pointed out that most of the negative feedback on this forum came from people who hadn't read the book. The 'attack' that you're talking about was only a response to something mason said, and he didn't even say it in a rude way.

I guess I'll be accused of being the author's friend now, but I just feel that the book was worthwhile to me, and feel the criticisms of this book are a bit unfair. I'm not saying that because of this book I've become a master at reading tells or even that I have even had a chance to use the information. I am mostly an online player who plans to start playing a little more live so I picked this book up.

By the way, I respect mason a lot, and his book reviews have influenced many of my purchases. In fact, I just ordered The Greatest Book of Poker for Winners soley based on his review, and I have never bought a book that I saw him give a bad review. But he hasn't even read this book.

Re: Prelim review of Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells
 

Hi Steam:

To be completely fair, I haven't read the book and will withhold my judgement until I do so. But the concensus of this forum is definitely negative so far.

[ QUOTE ]
When he says Mason isn't one of the best players in the business and then gives a hand example from a $1-5 Stud game, I was ROFLMAO and if I had been taking a drink at the time, dieat soda would have spewed all over my computer.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was my reaction as well. I try to be careful about writing anything which might be interpreted as a put down of small limit players, and that's why I responded the way I did. However, since you "hit the nail on the head," I'm certainly going to agree.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Prelim review of Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells
 

[ QUOTE ]
And the stakes that mrbaa plays at should have no bearing on whether mason is or isn't one of the best players in the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

But it certainly should have a bearing on what we can expect in terms of the author's expertise as David and I have pointed out before on many occasions. To really understand poker well, you need to be at the very least competent at the middle limits.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Prelim review of Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells
 

[ QUOTE ]
Actually a "homer" refers to a sports fan who automatically roots for and struggles to find any fault with their home team - even though their deficiencies are glaringly obvious to the rest of the world.


[/ QUOTE ]

But at Two Plus Two it's our policy to state those books which are good are good, and to steer our readers away from questionable stuff. Your implication is that a "Two Plus Two homer" would be critical of all non-Two Plus Two books, and that's not what we do.

[ QUOTE ]
Anyhow my point was only that you should take a look at the book yourself (or wait for more reviews to roll in) before defaulting to the 2+2 party line.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is highly insulting to the way we do business and the way we conduct these forums. There is no Two Plus Two party line.

[ QUOTE ]
In this thread I read 2 negative (The OP and Texibus) and 2 fairly positive (Howard Schwartz of the Gambler's Bookstore and jct).


[/ QUOTE ]

If the reviews come from well known posters with good reputations (and a good understanding of poker) two reviews may be one too many. Also, Howard Schwartz doesn't review books in a critical manner. He generally gives an overview of what the book is about and presents virtually all gambling books in a positive manner.

MM

Re: Prelim review of Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would not count you among "the best players in the business". Do you feel you are?

[/ QUOTE ]

The books Mason's written and published are among the best in the business, and have been for many years. Where do you see yourself compared to Mason in this area?

As far as playing, where do you see yourself as a player? Have the tell's you've written about made you many millions from playing, or are you winning money based on the mathematical and strategic concepts that Mason and David put in print for you to learn from many years ago?

[/ QUOTE ]

The books mason has written are excellent, but counting him as one of the best players in the business is a bit of a stretch.

Re: Prelim review of Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells
 

Before you can state which books are "good" don't you think you should read them?

More than that, you know full well that the explosive growth of this site and your book sales is due not to an army of experts, but to a burst of new players entering the game. You've taken aim at this same marekt with Getting Started in Hold'em and, to some extent, Sklansky's tourney book.

That's who The Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells is primarily aimed at, as I've said repeatedly, new players, folks who've read a strategy book or two but nothing on tells, and more experienced players who'd like to add a bit to their knowledge. Is Mason, as a long-time, mid-high limit player going to pick up some useful new things to look for from this book? Probably not.

Can just about anyone who's playing below 20-40 live (or playing higher but not winning) learn from it? Quite possibly.

Can anyone who is getting into poker find this both a useful and entertaining read? That was our main goal, and I think we've achieved it.

btw, as for the limit in my example, the game I mentioned is the biggest (and only) game regularly spread on the 5:40 Hudson Line express.

Re: Prelim review of Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells
 

I have to admit, I immediately thought of this Homer, but I much prefer this guy.

Steam is a great guy and a good player because he makes people feel at ease with his down-home charm.

Steam, will you go to the prom with me? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Brian

Re: Prelim review of Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells
 

[ QUOTE ]
Steam, will you go to the prom with me?

Brian


[/ QUOTE ]

My wife doesn't let me date.