Manny to the Phillies?
 

I know there are a bunch of Sox fans here, so . . .

"I'm back. I had to come out of retirement to post this.

This is basically a done deal with some minor issues to iron out. I would anticipate a press conference later this week.

Abreu will be involved."

http://www.philliesphans.com/phorum/...24&start=0

This guy broke a number of previous Phillies deals well before anyone else did, so there is almost certainly something to this.

Re: Manny to the Phillies?
 

This is a great deal providing the phils dont have to give up too much else.

edit* by too much else im thinking utley/howard/floyd/hamels

Re: Manny to the Phillies?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is a great deal providing the phils dont have to give up too much else.

edit* by too much else im thinking utley/howard/floyd/hamels

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm okay with Floyd or Hammels if Clemment can be involved. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

The Phillies definitly need another starter I'm not sure that Franklin can cut it. I'm still like this trade, if it happens.

Re: Manny to the Phillies?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is a great deal providing the phils dont have to give up too much else.

edit* by too much else im thinking utley/howard/floyd/hamels

[/ QUOTE ]

it would be the red sox giving somethign else up, not the phillies (well it should be lol, unless a large amount of cash is involved). when you factor in fielding and age, they are pretty much equal (maybe a slight edge to abreu) in terms of worth and bobby A is cheaper.

Re: Manny to the Phillies?
 

j.t snow wtf

Re: Manny to the Phillies?
 

To warn you now, Abreu's fielding is about the same as Manny's. They both are lazy in the field don't hustle and have a tendency to brain fart. Abreu has more speed and is cheeper. I still don't think it will be Manny and Clement for Abreu, there has to be something else involved. I'll bet Michaels is too. Just what would the Red Sox give up to get rid of Manny + a starting centerfielder?

Re: Manny to the Phillies?
 

[ QUOTE ]
j.t snow wtf

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what about him? cant ask for a much better backup 1B

Re: Manny to the Phillies?
 

To warn you now, Abreu's fielding is about the same as Manny's.

its not even remotely close to the same.

fielding metrics that i have seen this year:

UZR 2005

manny -57 (park adjusted)
abreu -4

FRAA (baseball prospectus) 2005

manny -13
BA -6

Zone rating 2005

manny .729
abreu .852

right field is also harder to play.

while bobby may be below average, manny is going to go down in history as the worst fielder of this decade (maybe in baseball history, jack?).

abreu > manny

Re: Manny to the Phillies?
 

I've never found a reliable fielding stat. However, I did watch about 80 Red Sox games last year and have been a Phillies fan my whole life. I've watched both field a lot. There is not much of a difference. Just my observation.

Re: Manny to the Phillies?
 

[ QUOTE ]
To warn you now, Abreu's fielding is about the same as Manny's.

its not even remotely close to the same.

fielding metrics that i have seen this year:

UZR 2005

manny -57 (park adjusted)
abreu -4

FRAA (baseball prospectus) 2005

manny -13
BA -6

Zone rating 2005

manny .729
abreu .852

right field is also harder to play.

while bobby may be below average, manny is going to go down in history as the worst fielder of this decade (maybe in baseball history, jack?).

abreu > manny

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57 runs sounds like it has to be the worst season ever, fielding. I cannot believe the real cost is nearly that high. Maybe 20, 30 tops.

Re: Manny to the Phillies?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
j.t snow wtf

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what about him? cant ask for a much better backup 1B

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But why? Is he really much better defensively than Youkilis? Better offensively than Petagine? And for $2 million. I thought average-ish 1Bmen would be an easy thing to find cheaply.

Re: Manny to the Phillies?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
j.t snow wtf

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what about him? cant ask for a much better backup 1B

[/ QUOTE ]

But why? Is he really much better defensively than Youkilis? Better offensively than Petagine? And for $2 million. I thought average-ish 1Bmen would be an easy thing to find cheaply.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he is just as good as Youk is at 1B then it isn't horrible. Youk is young and can play a lot of games.

craig

Re: Manny to the Phillies?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
To warn you now, Abreu's fielding is about the same as Manny's.

its not even remotely close to the same.

fielding metrics that i have seen this year:

UZR 2005

manny -57 (park adjusted)
abreu -4

FRAA (baseball prospectus) 2005

manny -13
BA -6

Zone rating 2005

manny .729
abreu .852

right field is also harder to play.

while bobby may be below average, manny is going to go down in history as the worst fielder of this decade (maybe in baseball history, jack?).

abreu > manny

[/ QUOTE ]

57 runs sounds like it has to be the worst season ever, fielding. I cannot believe the real cost is nearly that high. Maybe 20, 30 tops.

[/ QUOTE ]

OOOPS [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

-47

and i agree, it cant be that bad.

Re: Manny to the Phillies?
 

Position adjusted, Manny is probably the worst fielder in the game, at least among regulars.

Re: Manny to the Phillies?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
j.t snow wtf

[/ QUOTE ]

what about him? cant ask for a much better backup 1B

[/ QUOTE ]

But why? Is he really much better defensively than Youkilis? Better offensively than Petagine? And for $2 million. I thought average-ish 1Bmen would be an easy thing to find cheaply.

[/ QUOTE ]
Snow is still one of the top 4 or 5 defensive first basemen in the game. However, when you see that Mientkiewicz only got $800K from KC, its pretty clear that BOS overpaid.

Re: Manny to the Phillies?
 

I must be blind.

What's the deal supposed to be other than Manny for Abreau?

Re: Manny to the Phillies?
 

not that it really means anything, but this rumor has been emphatically denied by both sides. the latest idea (which seems pretty good for both teams, no?) would be manny/clement for abreu/michaels and maybe some cash and prospects evening off the deal. i would be a huge fan of that, and i think it fits philly needs also.

Re: Manny to the Phillies?
 

manny is sooooo atrocious. lots of butchers in the field, I think this is pretty much the historic "modern era" for butchers, once you factor in the fact that we have [censored]' gloves now. guys like sheffield, bonds with no knees, etc, etc, just can't cover any ground. I'm really not keen on manny, so overpaid and overrated. even if he were to hit the open market right now he'd be overpaid.

Re: Manny to the Phillies?
 

dude, if I were the sox and I got this deal, I'd be pretty [censored]' stoked. and I *like* Clement.

Re: Manny to the Phillies?
 

[ QUOTE ]
manny is sooooo atrocious. lots of butchers in the field, I think this is pretty much the historic "modern era" for butchers, once you factor in the fact that we have [censored]' gloves now. guys like sheffield, bonds with no knees, etc, etc, just can't cover any ground. I'm really not keen on manny, so overpaid and overrated. even if he were to hit the open market right now he'd be overpaid.

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What if Manny only DH'ed? Would the runs he creates batting make up for his 0 runs allowed (considering he is negative now)? He is definitely passed his prime. But, even for his age, he is still an OPS machine.

craig

Re: Manny to the Phillies?
 

well, no, he's not saving negative runs, he's saving negative runs *above replacement*. You can never save negative runs, and you will always save some just by virtue of not allowing every ball hit in your direction to become a home run.

that said, he'd be much better off as a DH but still overpaid.

Re: Manny to the Phillies?
 

[ QUOTE ]
dude, if I were the sox and I got this deal, I'd be pretty [censored]' stoked. and I *like* Clement.

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same here, which is why i doubt it would happen.

manny is vastly overrated, even by the supposed 'informed' posters on SOSH and BTF.

when i checked the stats, i was FLOORED by how often abreu gets on base.

as for michaels, he would be a perfect guy for the sox to look into. from what i understand the phills are looking to upgrade their pitching and michaels is expendable. he is cheap this year, and cost controlled next i believe and an on base machine.

Re: Manny to the Phillies?
 

nah, I don't think Manny's too overrated on BTF. I think, that, in general, defense is still underrated by a lot of neophyte types that are stuck in the jason giambi oakland a's. I think the idea is this:

a) we can measure hitting pretty much dead-on
b) we can get a decent view of defense, but it's very variable and hazy
c) manny is a great [censored] hitter!

so while, say, manny in actuality might be an averageish player in terms of value, we *know* he can hit the ball awesomely, and we only have a general idea of how much his defense costs and not much confidence in it.

Re: Manny to the Phillies?
 

I don't know, sublime, I truly think you underrate Manny a good deal. We've had this argument before, but I feel that he's below average as a fielder but not the catastrophe the stats make him out to be. I think he's hurt by the wall at Fenway. I think every Fenway left fielder in history has had his stats punished by the wall. I think his consistency at the plate more than makes up for his fielding and keeps him an above average player. Calling him an average player is beyond my comprehension.

That said, if we did get Abreu back for him that would be the best deal floated yet, as it wouldn't represent that much of a downgrade. There is no way it represents an upgrade, and I don't think it makes the team better.

Re: Manny to the Phillies?
 

[ QUOTE ]
nah, I don't think Manny's too overrated on BTF. I think, that, in general, defense is still underrated by a lot of neophyte types that are stuck in the jason giambi oakland a's. I think the idea is this:

a) we can measure hitting pretty much dead-on
b) we can get a decent view of defense, but it's very variable and hazy
c) manny is a great [censored] hitter!

so while, say, manny in actuality might be an averageish player in terms of value, we *know* he can hit the ball awesomely, and we only have a general idea of how much his defense costs and not much confidence in it.

[/ QUOTE ]

good point (the last one), but i think the red sox fans on BTF overrate manny. not as bad as the public, but in my eyes anyways.

Re: Manny to the Phillies?
 

That said, if we did get Abreu back for him that would be the best deal floated yet, as it wouldn't represent that much of a downgrade. There is no way it represents an upgrade, and I don't think it makes the team better.

at worst it would be a wash, and i am convinced that abreu would be an upgrade. he is younger, faster, draws more walks (ie will age better) and is a much better defensive player (which doesnt say much). when you factor in the fact that he is cheaper and opens up more money for a stronger FA class of 06, then i think a SU swap is a steal for the sox.

nobody doubts that mannys defense isnt AS bad as documented but the thing is even after you adjust for normalcy he is STILL horrific in the field and getting worse EVERY year. he easily cost the sox 20 runs a year the past two seasons in the past two seaons and has shown a downward trend since signing here.

if pat gillick offered abereu SU for manny the sox FO would do this deal before the heroin wore off of mr gillick. as usual players who are on teh red sox and yankees are overhyped (jeter/manny/damon) while players just as good or better (young/abreu/wilkerson) get overlooked because they play for smaller market teams and do unsexy things like draw walks and play above average defense.

Re: Manny to the Phillies?
 

4 team trade

[ QUOTE ]
BOSTON--Manny Ramirez finally got the trade he was asking for. Late last night, the Philadelphia Phillies, Boston Red Sox, Tampa Bay Devil Rays, and New York Mets completed one of the most complex deals in history, with Ramirez as a key component. In a bizarre twist, however, Ramirez somehow ended up back with his original team.

“This isn't what I had in mind when I asked for a trade,” Ramirez said, minutes after he was informed about the deal by Red Sox GM Jed Hoyer. “When I first heard I was being moved, I was like ‘Yes!’ Then they told me it was the Red Sox and I was like ‘Yes! What a great place to play!’ Then after a while it dawned on me that the Red Sox were the same team I was on last year. They can’t fool me like that. I didn’t just fall off that truck with all the turnips in the back of it.”

According to MLB.com, the details of the trade are extremely complex. First, the Red Sox sent Ramirez to the Phillies for rightfielder Bobby Abreu and pitcher Gavin Floyd. Boston then spun Abreu to the Mets for Aaron Heilman, Kaz Matsui, and prized prospect Lastings Milledge. However, the Red Sox never had any intention of keeping Matsui, who they immediately sent to the Tampa Bay Devil Rays in return for first basemen/outfielder Aubrey Huff and a player to be named later. Huff was then packaged with Heilman and Milledge and sent to Philly for Ramirez.

“Yes! We got Ramirez!” Red Sox co-GM Jed Hoyer said after the deal was consummated. “Whew, that was a pretty crazy deal. I didn’t think it would ever get done, but in the end all parties were willing to do it. So now we have Manny and we also have Bobby Abreu and Gavin Floyd. No, wait a minute. We don’t have Abreu anymore. We do have Heilman though, right? No? OK, well, whoever we have, it was a great deal because we ended up with one of the best clutch hitters in the game.”

The Phillies, who were thrilled to get Ramirez, were initially reluctant to trade him back to Boston. However the team’s front office decided that Heilman and Milledge, two of the Mets most sought-after prospects, were too good to pass up.

“We were pretty elated when we finally got Manny,” said Phillies GM Pat Gillick, “but we also new this deal wasn’t complete. When the Sox came to us with Heilman and Milledge, it was an offer we couldn’t refuse. So in the end, we got rid of Manny and his big contract, and gained a good young pitcher and a a guy who could be our centerfielder for years to come. Now all we need is a righfielder and another power bat in the lineup. Oh [censored]. Ramirez was that power bat. Dammit! I know there was a reason we wanted him so bad.”

Ramirez’s agent, Greg Genske, said his client was still unhappy in Boston, despite the fact that they accommodated his trade demand.

“Well first of all, Manny appreciates the Red Sox efforts to accommodate his trade demand. However the fact remains that he’s still in Boston,” Genske said. “He really wants to get out of here. He loves Boston and everything, but there’s just no privacy here. He wants to go someplace where he can hit his 50 home runs, drive in his 145 RBI’s, behave in bizarre and inexplicable ways, and just fly under the radar.”

Ramirez and his agent aren’t the only ones confused about the trade. Abreu thought he was going to the Red Sox, then realized he was going to the Mets. Upon hearing the news, he promptly requested a trade back to Philly, a request that Mets GM Omar Minaya has no intention of honoring.

“We’re going to hang on to Bobby. He’s a good player,” Minaya told reporters last night. “I think once he gets used to the idea of playing here he’s going to really enjoy it. We’ve got a great team. We signed a bunch of free agents. We’ve got one of the most bloated payrolls in the league. Let’s all enjoy these times of plenty before the [censored] hits the fan and they start the rebuilding project. At that point I will have been fired and hired by somebody else, and perhaps I will trade for him again.”

Meanwhile the Boston front office is still trying to convince Ramirez to rescind his trade demand. So far they have had very limited success.

“It appears that our recent trade has not satisfied Manny’s demands,” said Hoyer. “That’s unfortunate. I hope he appreciates the fact that we put forth an effort to deal him. I understand that he wants his privacy but that's something that's out of our control. Honestly, I don't even know what he's talking about, because I walk around Boston all the time in broad daylight and nobody says [censored] to me.”

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Good times.