The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

In the Scott Fishmann thread I made the below statement:

[ QUOTE ]
After all in pool the key to wining is not being better than your oponnent, just in matching up better (getting the proper weight) so that you have the advantage.


[/ QUOTE ]
and got encouragement to follow up in a seperate thread. Here it is. Initially I may be brief but will add to it as required.

In many respects this applies to most sports and games including poker. I'd have a hard time thinking of any game or sport I couldn't match up and have at least a 50/50 chance of winning. Naturally this is the definition of matching up properly. Who want's to do that? The key to matching up is for your oponnent to perceive the matchup as either equal or to their advantage while in reality it is to yours.

This is most commonly done by sandbagging, golf and bowling are two great examples of where this is done. The limitations and downsides of sandbagging are many. First it limits you to people normally outside your circle of friends and locality. Easily overcome by either travelling or living somewhere like Las Vegas where they will travel to you. The major downside is unless you stay fully in control, and are very careful about when and how well you play physical punishment may be inflicted upon your precious body. So if you are going to sandbag, be very very good at looking lucky.

In the past I matched up by simply being willing not to play if the game wasn't in my favor. Heck once I played $5 dominoes for three hours listening to a well known one pocket player (who was of course being staked himself) run back and forth between me and his backers sweetening the spot untill I knew I had both the pure nuts and room to spare. Five sets and five grand later they figured it out too. Funny thing is just when we were about to adjust where they would have had a slight edge the stakehorse pulled up so I didn't have to give back a single barrel. If you are not sure what I mean by that or why I would be willing to do so feel free to ask.

Getting the nuts is good, getting that plus room to spare is much much better. After all the best thing about matching up vastly in your favor is that you can play a session, collect your cash, adjust, play another session, collect more cash and then adjust again. Nothing is more enjoyable than the rare occurrance to be getting the weight when you should be giving it. This used to happen to me more than was reasonable for two simple reasons. One, I didn't look like or act a pool player (what ever that means, at least so I was told). I wore glases and owned three businesses at the time that this happened most frequently. All the road players knew that I would bet high, and loved to "gamble". They were always half right, I never liked to be gambling against road players. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I've got three good stories about geting weight when I could have been giving it I'll share sometime as well. One involves George Breedlove, Big John and Jeanette Lee. Another is a solid road player named Garcia from Colorado Springs, I bet Ray Zee knows all four of these players as many of you will as well.

Getting close to lunchtime, I hope this post is entertaining, please feel free to comment positively or negatively. After all if I'm gonna dish it out to others I need to be willing to take it as well.

Jimbo

Re: The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

Jimbo,

More, more, more.

Re: The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

[ QUOTE ]
Jimbo,

More, more, more.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

This is awesome to read and I hope you will write more. I'd like to know more about how you got started and moved up in the "levels", as well as lots of juicy anecdotes/gossip about the road players. perhaps you could detail specific advanced concepts you learned that helped you to improve (?).

Have you read the book "Playing Off The Rail"? What is your opinion of it?

thanks!

Re: The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

Keep it coming!!

Re: The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you are not sure what I mean by that or why I would be willing to do so feel free to ask.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.
also i have no idea how to play (let alone bet on) dominos.

Re: The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

[ QUOTE ]
Keep it coming!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Jimbo.....Well spoken & written!

Sounds like the makings of a very entertaining book?

Give it a shot!!

Myrt.......

Re: The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

I've been looking forward to this post since I read the fischman thread. But this has only whetted my appetite!

Re: The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

Thanks to everyone who took the time to comment but especially to Myrtle. Maybe I should save my stories for a book. Anyone think 2+2 would deviate from Poker? LOL

In my initial post I mentioned it would be difficult for me to not be able to matchup in most any sport or game. After more thought I stand by any games but have thought about a few sports in which I'd have no ghost of a chance. A few are Jai Lai, canoing, hockey and most of the Winter Olympic sports. On the other hand I think I could handicap most of the summer Olympic sports, even being the old fart I am now. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


tolbiny asked about this: "Funny thing is just when we were about to adjust where they would have had a slight edge the stakehorse pulled up so I didn't have to give back a single barrel."

When you are gambling and feel there is future potential, it is often wise to allow an oponnent (especially one with a healthy stakehorse) to get a shot at at least one win before the match ends. This helps to both insure goodwill as well as future potential action. Yes this can backfire and instill confidence in a player who can then beat you with the same spot he had been losing with to you just a while earlier. It is like bluffing on the river at poker, sometimes you get called down and lose but it is worth it in the long run.

To thoses ends I would usually play at least one set when I wasn't sure I had the best of it after I was already several sets ahead. Often I would lose this set but it was never a bad investment. Not being a nit is important in the gambling world.

On the subject of not being a nit: Once I offered to play anyone in the world with the eight and the break on a bar table. Unfortunately Dave Matlock came to town the same weekend I had made this offer. I had beaten several name players for $1000 sets earlier in the weekend. Heck I even won a $1500 Joss poolcue from Jimmy King with this bet. Well at the time Dave M. was probably the best bar table player in the US (perhaps the world). I could have easily turned down the action and saved myself a dime but the "nit factor" would have been way too high, especially considering his backer didn't get along too well with me in the first place. So I took the action and as I was supposed to do, I lost. So much for the anyone in the world challenge and not knowing who was in town timing. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] This still had +EV in the long run. Doing my best Sklansky imitation, "Do you see why?" [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

More later,

Jimbo

Re: The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

I am eagerly awaiting more, as I am sure others are. Stories like this have special appeal to poker players/gamblers such as ourselves. Thanks for sharing.

Re: The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks to everyone who took the time to comment but especially to Myrtle. Maybe I should save my stories for a book. Anyone think 2+2 would deviate from Poker? LOL

In my initial post I mentioned it would be difficult for me to not be able to matchup in most any sport or game. After more thought I stand by any games but have thought about a few sports in which I'd have no ghost of a chance. A few are Jai Lai, canoing, hockey and most of the Winter Olympic sports. On the other hand I think I could handicap most of the summer Olympic sports, even being the old fart I am now. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


tolbiny asked about this: "Funny thing is just when we were about to adjust where they would have had a slight edge the stakehorse pulled up so I didn't have to give back a single barrel."

When you are gambling and feel there is future potential, it is often wise to allow an oponnent (especially one with a healthy stakehorse) to get a shot at at least one win before the match ends. This helps to both insure goodwill as well as future potential action. Yes this can backfire and instill confidence in a player who can then beat you with the same spot he had been losing with to you just a while earlier. It is like bluffing on the river at poker, sometimes you get called down and lose but it is worth it in the long run.

To thoses ends I would usually play at least one set when I wasn't sure I had the best of it after I was already several sets ahead. Often I would lose this set but it was never a bad investment. Not being a nit is important in the gambling world.

On the subject of not being a nit: Once I offered to play anyone in the world with the eight and the break on a bar table. Unfortunately Dave Matlock came to town the same weekend I had made this offer. I had beaten several name players for $1000 sets earlier in the weekend. Heck I even won a $1500 Joss poolcue from Jimmy King with this bet. Well at the time Dave M. was probably the best bar table player in the US (perhaps the world). I could have easily turned down the action and saved myself a dime but the "nit factor" would have been way too high, especially considering his backer didn't get along too well with me in the first place. So I took the action and as I was supposed to do, I lost. So much for the anyone in the world challenge and not knowing who was in town timing. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] This still had +EV in the long run. Doing my best Sklansky imitation, "Do you see why?" [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

More later,

Jimbo

[/ QUOTE ]


....yup, I do see why.

How many more of these do you have?

Fleshed out and colored up, you already have two chapters.

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Jimbo,

More, more, more.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

Jimbo,

Amazing stuff. I'd buy the book.
-James

Re: The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

This thread makes me want to start playing pool again. Thanks Jimbo.

Re: The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

Cool thread Jimbo. As someone said earlier these kind of stories do have an intrinsic appeal to poker players.

I have a question. How much time and effort did you have to spend to judge the ability of the opposition in order to make sure you had the proper weight? I'd guess you have a very good idea of your own ability and that of anyone you were backing. Having an idea of who you are playing is as important but the information would be harder to come by.

Did you go by word of mouth or would you scout the opposition? It seems as if it would be pretty time-consuming for a guy with 3 businesses to take care of.

Re: The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've got three good stories about geting weight when I could have been giving it I'll share sometime as well. One involves George Breedlove, Big John and Jeanette Lee.

[/ QUOTE ]

I definately want to hear this story. Please don't make me beg. Thanks.

The Sucker

Re: The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

[ QUOTE ]
Jimbo,

Amazing stuff. I'd buy the book.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

[ QUOTE ]

I definately want to hear this story. Please don't make me beg. Thanks.

The Sucker

[/ QUOTE ]

me too. i want to hear all stories

Re: The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

Jimbo, your talk of not being a nit hits home to many I'm sure. The ups and downs of your career in the gambling life is something that can't be made up. You need to open up more.

Re: The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks to everyone who took the time to comment but especially to Myrtle. Maybe I should save my stories for a book. Anyone think 2+2 would deviate from Poker? LOL

[/ QUOTE ]

It would make a great book, and 2+2 would be crazy not to pick it up. Your coments and thoughts have a lot more to do with poker than most realize. How many great players do you think give waaay to much action to supossed nits? I'd buy your book the day it came out.

Re: The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

Excellent read.

Thanks for posting it,
blake

Re: The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

[ QUOTE ]
When you are gambling and feel there is future potential, it is often wise to allow an oponnent (especially one with a healthy stakehorse) to get a shot at at least one win before the match ends. This helps to both insure goodwill as well as future potential action. Yes this can backfire and instill confidence in a player who can then beat you with the same spot he had been losing with to you just a while earlier. It is like bluffing on the river at poker, sometimes you get called down and lose but it is worth it in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

One spot where this can go wrong is when your opponent plays even worse when behind. Say you get hte 8 and have a small edge. This day your opponant plays bad and you murder him getting the 8. Now you can adjust and play even (where you would normally be taking the worst of it) and beat him even. Now he quits as he has enough for that day. The next time you match up it will be harder because he will point out that you beat him even.

Re: The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd buy your book the day it came out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks to everyone who took the time to comment but especially to Myrtle. Maybe I should save my stories for a book. Anyone think 2+2 would deviate from Poker? LOL

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe they have books on Blackjack (card things) and Craps (cube things). Why not one on sphere things?

Re: The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks to everyone who took the time to comment but especially to Myrtle. Maybe I should save my stories for a book. Anyone think 2+2 would deviate from Poker? LOL

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe they have books on Blackjack (card things) and Craps (cube things). Why not one on sphere things?

[/ QUOTE ]

.....awwwwww

Don't bust his balls, willya!

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

more please

Re: The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

I always like Jimbos pool stories. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Other stuff like this can also be found in the book 'Playing off the rail'. Great book about taking one's pool game on the road. It reminded me of an article Jimbo(I think this Jimbo) wrote for 'intelligent gambler'.

Thanks for the story Jimbo.

b

Re: The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

[ QUOTE ]
Have you read the book "Playing Off The Rail"? What is your opinion of it?


[/ QUOTE ]

I thought it was a great read. Especially the story where the guys are flipping a coin for their bankrolls.

b

Re: The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

So I am pretty slow with updates, but here it comes. Here is a brief story about both having the best of it while getting weight with an additional bonus of the importance of reading your opponents carefully and accurately.

It was a Saturday morning at opening time for my neighborhood lounge sometime around 1986. I was inspecting the cleanup crew's work and the daytime bartender had just arrived.

In walks Safeway Jim and Mark Coates looking for me. They immediately offerred me the 8 ball in a race to nine sets of nine ball action for $500 a pop. Now on a 4 1/2 by nine table this would have been a fairly close match but on my bar tables it was, as Tom Cruise said in Color of Money when asked what he had in his case, DOOM!

Not only were we playing on bar tables but we were playing on my bar tables. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] My club was pretty large for a neighborhood joint with 4000 sq feet and five bar tables. I had three Valleys near the bar and two Dynamo's somewhat isolated on the band side of the club. This is where I played my cash games as well as all of our weekly tourneys and League pool matches. I'l briefly mention that a Dynamo coin-op pool table requires a heavier cue ball to operate properly. This had proven to be quite an advantage for me many times in the past and would be so in the future as well.

Anyway the first match isn't all that exciting. I play Mark first getting the eight and win the match easilky. Here they made their first mistake, instead of asking me to adjust they just put in Safeway Jim giving me the same weight. Naturally this is like stealing but I keep it close and am up two sets and $1000 in less than an hour. Now thay want to adjust to even and put Mark back in, I win the set, Jim's turn, you got it, up four sets and $2000.

Now for the best part of the story, at least IMHO. Before now they had been very quick to act and offer the deals with little to no delay between each set. This time they huddle over in the corner whispering to each other for about five minutes before offering to play another set asking for either the eight or the last two. This unusual action prompted me to wonder what was up so I recalled my past experiences with these two fellas and all I knew about them, nothing would lead me to believe anything was up but it still didn't feel quite right.

We had been "gambling friendly" with no trash talk nor posting up front. This is less common these days since the younger generation of pool players have much less honor and will stiff you in a heartbeat but in the 70's and 80's people still often took it on faith that they would be payed off as long as all parties knew one another. I won the coin toss for the next match after offering Mark the last two. Before I broke the balls I decided to request we post the $500 for the upcoming set before we began. You should have seen the look on their faces, it was like a slo motion sitcom watching them turn to each other wondering what to do. Finally Safeway Jim blurted out somewaht awkardly, "How did you know we were busted?". Ha Ha, I explained to them that I had been gambling when they were still in grade school and had seen it all before but no hard feelings. They just wanted to shoot an "air barrell", and I understood. What I didn't tell them was it was just my spidey sense that tripped them up, not X-Ray vision. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Feel free to ask for any definitions or elaboration you might want for this post.

Jimbo

Re: The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

What would've happened if you won?

Re: The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

[ QUOTE ]
What would've happened if you won?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm assuming you mean if I had played against their air barrell? Really hadn't thought about it that much since it is situation and oponnent dependent. I suppose with them I would have taken one of their pool cues as collateral with a specified timeframe allowed for redemption. Sort of like an ad hoc hock shop. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I have done that before, in fact that reminds me of another story about that exact subject. lol


Jimbo

Re: The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

Jimbo: This is astonishingly interesting. I have little to no clue what you are saying half the time, but I love it. Thanks very much for the effort.

Re: The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is astonishingly interesting. I have little to no clue what you are saying half the time, but I love it. Thanks very much for the effort.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can anyone tell me what "Once I offered to play anyone in the world with the eight and the break on a bar table ." means?

Re: The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have little to no clue what you are saying half the time, but I love it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol, exactly how I feel. English is not my mother tongue and I am completely unfamiliar with pool slang, so in about every sentence there is something I don't understand, but it is still very amusing to read [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. More, more, more.

Re: The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I should save my stories for a book.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd greatly encourage you to think seriously about a book. However, I wouldn't let that stop you from posting more of them here.

Consider it a bit of early market research. You'll be able to show prospective agents and publishers the kind of responses that you get to your work from the world's elite online gambling community.

Re: The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

[ QUOTE ]
What would've happened if you won?

[/ QUOTE ]

He would have been owed the money and may or may not have been paid at some point depending on his relationship with these two. I have been out of pool for about 10 years now, but back then it was not uncommon for fairly large sums to be bet on a player's word.

Re: The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

Hey Randy, I didn't know you had been in the game too, very cool. You are well rounded man.

Jimbo

Re: The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is astonishingly interesting. I have little to no clue what you are saying half the time, but I love it. Thanks very much for the effort.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can anyone tell me what "Once I offered to play anyone in the world with the eight and the break on a bar table ." means?

[/ QUOTE ]

Be glad to do so, I offered an open invitaion to any and all comers. The details were we would play nine ball on a bar table. I get all the breaks, we would play a specified numer of games and the winner took the cash. In addition to the breaks I would win if I legally pocketed either the eight ball or nine ball. My oponnent could only win if he/she pocked the nine ball legally. I hope this clarifies matters.

Jimbo

Re: The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

Jimbo - I'm glad this thread was bumped as I missed it the first time around.

Awesome awesome stuff.


I think you have to realize that not everyone even knows how to play 9-ball. So they might not even understand the significance of 'getting to win if you pocketed either the 8 or the 9.'

Also possible that they don't understand that there are significant differences between the coin-op bar-tables and the 'standard' ones (or whatever you would call them).

I'm not saying that you should explain all the rules of 9-ball...although if you did a book you may want to consider that.

I too think that you have the makings of a book here.
These are some outstanding stories.

I particularly like how your spidey-sense detected the air-ball attempt.

Re: The Matching Up Thread I promised
 

Thanks Jimbo: did help.

Microbob is right for me at least, I went and looked up the rules to 9ball, never played pool like that before.

For me personally I'd rather you write more stories than spend all your time helping newbies understand every single word.

Saying that, you missed one question above (from mikechops ) that I wondered about as well.

" I have a question. How much time and effort did you have to spend to judge the ability of the opposition in order to make sure you had the proper weight?

I'd guess you have a very good idea of your own ability and that of anyone you were backing. Having an idea of who you are playing is as important but the information would be harder to come by.

Did you go by word of mouth or would you scout the opposition? It seems as if it would be pretty time-consuming for a guy with 3 businesses to take care of.
"