Stars 1/2 - QQ in bb vs steal raise
 

I didn't have too many hands on villain at that point. My stats now have him 12%/6.1%/3.33 AF. I think he only had a few orbits, so all i had on his blind steals was 1 out of 4 i think.

I'm wondering if this was a terrible line. The A is obviously the worst possible card, but he raised in steal position so there's plenty of hands i beat. Against a more passive player i'd bet out and evaluate if i got raised, but this guy is really aggro (his turn AF is 7.00) and i really don't want him raising the turn if i have no idea where i'm at.

Either i'm crushing him or he's crushing me, and there's only 1 possible over that can come. QQ is way too good to fold against his range I think, and if I check, i'm almost certain he'll try to bet me off the hand if he missed. Is it terrible to just check/call FTR vs a guy who will bet more hands than he'll call? I don't see how else i make money if i'm ahead.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, CO calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (6.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.25 BB

Re: Stars 1/2 - QQ in bb vs steal raise
 

this is a terrible line
bet the flop

Re: Stars 1/2 - QQ in bb vs steal raise
 

[ QUOTE ]
this is a terrible line
bet the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

And, why?
[img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Stars 1/2 - QQ in bb vs steal raise
 

Let him do the guessing, bet the flop.

Re: Stars 1/2 - QQ in bb vs steal raise
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this is a terrible line
bet the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

And, why?
[img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how it can make sense to c/c down. Maybe he'd bet TT on the flop and turn, but most rational guys will give up on that by the river when there's an A on the flop.

Re: Stars 1/2 - QQ in bb vs steal raise
 

Bet/3-bet flop. Call down only if he shows further aggression. Else bet.

Immediately c/c-ing is terrible, DUCY?

Re: Stars 1/2 - QQ in bb vs steal raise
 

OMG, bet the flop

Re: Stars 1/2 - QQ in bb vs steal raise
 

ok...I'll put myself in the check the flop camp.

I 3 bet PF, QQ is a premium hand. (Nice!) [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Here comes the flop... There is an ace on the board. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] Wait, I have queens and there is an ace on the board. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] This is not good. I bet CO has an ace. I'm behind. Damn, i had a good hand preflop. I'll check. I think CO will bet because he must have the ace (probably AK or something). I'll call his bet and see if a queen comes on the turn (I'll have trips!) [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Stars 1/2 - QQ in bb vs steal raise
 

lol i wouldnt check the flop but i dont really see why its terrible against a lot of opponents, as long as you dont c/f.

b/3b....now thats terrible.

Re: Stars 1/2 - QQ in bb vs steal raise
 

[ QUOTE ]
b/3b....now thats terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I has AK and your raise don’t scare me! Muck your hand, mine is better!

I think b/c looks too much like “I have a high pocket pair, but that ace scares me”. Or would you b/f?

Re: Stars 1/2 - QQ in bb vs steal raise
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bet/3-bet flop. Call down only if he shows further aggression. Else bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

This line is worse than the line the OP took. We're not that far removed from WA/WB here.

Edit: Please don't try to tell me that villain is ever folding an A.

Re: Stars 1/2 - QQ in bb vs steal raise
 

No, but I'm suggesting he might raise the flop without an A.

Change my line to bet/3-bet/fold flop and if he's still with us: c/f.

The whole reason why I was suggesting a 3-bet is folding equity, and because flop bets are cheaper.

But you're right, the calldown afterwards sucks (whoops, my bad). It should be a fold. We bluffed, he called, game over.


Edit: ...and you guys just made me realize why I’m spewy in 6-max... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Stars 1/2 - QQ in bb vs steal raise
 

[ QUOTE ]
lol i wouldnt check the flop but i dont really see why its terrible against a lot of opponents, as long as you dont c/f.

b/3b....now thats terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mind c/c,c/c,c/c line here. I would probably bet out on the flop since we 3bet preflop but the OPs line has merit.

Re: Stars 1/2 - QQ in bb vs steal raise
 

[ QUOTE ]

The whole reason why I was suggesting a 3-bet is folding equity

[/ QUOTE ]

what hands do you have folding "equity" against that you want to fold? if you think he's folding AT-AQ...well, LOL

Re: Stars 1/2 - QQ in bb vs steal raise
 

[ QUOTE ]
what hands do you have folding "equity" against that you want to fold? if you think he's folding AT-AQ...well, LOL

[/ QUOTE ]
That’s the whole point of the 3-bet: making sure he has an ace, so we can fold.

We’re not folding him if he has a good ace, that’s a fact. But he could very well be raising us WITHOUT an ace (I know it’s read dependant, how often does he bluff or raise middle or second pair?) or with a very weak ace.

3-betting lets him know we’re not afraid of the ace. If he doesn’t have an ace, he’s folding. If he’s got a weak ace, he MAY fold. But if he calls or caps, WE have an easy fold.
And isn’t paying 2 small bets to make sure of this better than having to call down 2 big bets?

But of course, if we have him beat, then folding him out is not what we want.


So our c-bet must go in on the flop, but then what? If he doesn’t kid around (read-dependant) and raises, we must fold. Bet/call and calldown does not look good then. But what if he calls? Bet again on the turn? Or c/c all the way?

And how about varying up your game now and then? This is a 1/2 game, you can at least give your opponents some credit…
We’re only a few orbits in. Go nuts with a B/3-B/F, and ABC from then on. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Stars 1/2 - QQ in bb vs steal raise
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what hands do you have folding "equity" against that you want to fold? if you think he's folding AT-AQ...well, LOL

[/ QUOTE ]
That’s the whole point of the 3-bet: making sure he has an ace, so we can fold.

We’re not folding him if he has a good ace, that’s a fact. But he could very well be raising us WITHOUT an ace (I know it’s read dependant, how often does he bluff or raise middle or second pair?) or with a very weak ace.

3-betting lets him know we’re not afraid of the ace. If he doesn’t have an ace, he’s folding. If he’s got a weak ace, he MAY fold. But if he calls or caps, WE have an easy fold.
And isn’t paying 2 small bets to make sure of this better than having to call down 2 big bets?

But of course, if we have him beat, then folding him out is not what we want.


So our c-bet must go in on the flop, but then what? If he doesn’t kid around (read-dependant) and raises, we must fold. Bet/call and calldown does not look good then. But what if he calls? Bet again on the turn? Or c/c all the way?

And how about varying up your game now and then? This is a 1/2 game, you can at least give your opponents some credit…
We’re only a few orbits in. Go nuts with a B/3-B/F, and ABC from then on. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

let ed miller teach you.

So I 3 bet to find out where i stood...

Re: Stars 1/2 - QQ in bb vs steal raise
 

OK, I stand corrected. Thanks for the link, and the heads-up.

Let's hope that's another leak of mine that's getting fixed...

Re: Stars 1/2 - QQ in bb vs steal raise
 

Hero's line was fine.

We can't fold given our read

If we raise we may pay more when were beaten, or the villain gives up on the hand and folds the flop.

I think Hero had correct line.

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Re: Stars 1/2 - QQ in bb vs steal raise
 

You're never folding an Ace and JJ will bet all the way. This is completely fine.

Re: Stars 1/2 - QQ in bb vs steal raise
 

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe he'd bet TT on the flop and turn, but most rational guys will give up on that by the river when there's an A on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rational guy's thought patterns...

Preflop: I has TT and I's on teh button. Everyone folds, so I raises. What's this? Big blind reraises me?? I flat call and raise teh flop to punish this guy...

Flop: Uh oh, ugly flop. ZOMGWTF, he checked??? He's probably got king high or he 3bet me with some sooted connectorz, so I bets. He calls...ruh roh.

Turn: He checks again. Mmmmokay, maybe he's got AA &amp; I's about to get pwned, but I think maybe he has some smaller pocket pair so I bets for value. Plus I's got the T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] so I has outs if he's ahead. Or maybe he's got a bigger pocket pair but he'll fold now cuz I obviously has teh ace or teh flush. Yarbles, he's called again.

River: Curses, missed my flush and my full house, but he's playing this so weak I just has to bet again. Probably he's got a smaller pocket pair, or maybe he had like QxQ[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] &amp; now he'll fold to my bet cuz I has to have him beat here. So I makes a half value bet half bluff bet.

Note: you can change villain's holding to any two cards, really, except take out the value bet bits when he's got JT. TT works well for this example, tho. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Stars 1/2 - QQ in bb vs steal raise
 

Bet this flop. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Stars 1/2 - QQ in bb vs steal raise
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bet this flop. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
To all those that bet the flop: what happens next?

What if he calls? Bet again on the turn, or c/c from there on?

What if he raises? Call or fold?