50/100 4 handed
 

I just doubled up the hand b4. Villain has 10k, I cover
Villain is Owre(23/19/2.3- riv aggression of 3.2) and he and I have a little history with which he has gotten the better of me mostly (3betting me a lot and me folding)


villain raises utg to 400, I call in BB with qsjs.
flop kcqd8c, he bets 700, I raise to 2200, he calls.
turn 6h check check
river 2d, I check he shoves 8k into 5k pot, what is this?

Re: 50/100 4 handed
 

why did you c/r the flop?

Re: 50/100 4 handed
 

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why did you c/r the flop?

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I knew this would come up, made a mistake, thought it was the best hand, scared of so many turn cards. Also, figured if I check call on this drawy board it gives away that I only have a mediocre hand and Owre is aggressive enough to push me off of it with his entire range. Also, value of 2nd pair goes up in 4 handed game I figured.

Re: 50/100 4 handed
 

If he's dumb, snapcall bc 1000 draws missed. If he's pretty smart, probably fold bc 1000 draws missed.

If he's really smart it just depends on how he reads you and how he thinks you'd interpret the bet.

Re: 50/100 4 handed
 

Against a random I snapcall this.

What hand is he shoving for value on the river that wouldn't bet the turn? He can't really have 22 here.

Re: 50/100 4 handed
 

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Against a random I snapcall this.

What hand is he shoving for value on the river that wouldn't bet the turn? He can't really have 22 here.

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AK?

This guy is tough, I think I fold.

Re: 50/100 4 handed
 

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Against a random I snapcall this.

What hand is he shoving for value on the river that wouldn't bet the turn? He can't really have 22 here.

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very easy to shove river but not shove turn. on turn you are afraid of a trap. once he checks river also you dont think hes good enough to trap twice so you value bet.

and, op, i kinda understood all those reasons but i just dont think they are enough to make it a good move. i would c/c. if he's aggro enough to try to bluff you off your hand, just keep calling on later streets. i think you'll make more money that way than by check/raising the flop. usually, of course. sometimes, i might c/r the flop, but then i definitely wouldn't become lost once he calls it...

Re: 50/100 4 handed
 

also, villain was very active in the chat box, once I called time. Originally saying just fold a few times, then saying how someone else at the table would make the call, and then typing in call a bunch of times and finally a plz call.

Re: 50/100 4 handed
 

For most people chat = nuts, but I know nothing about this guy.

Re: 50/100 4 handed
 

call as played, but WOW at that flop c/r. seriously wow. there is not ONE good outcome that can arise as a result of that.

Re: 50/100 4 handed
 

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For most people chat = nuts, but I know nothing about this guy.

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Even @ the higher limits?

Re: 50/100 4 handed
 

yea, i think the flop cr is terrible and your justification of it is worse

Re: 50/100 4 handed
 

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yea, i think the flop cr is terrible and your justification of it is worse

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I gave you what I was thinking, not justification. I know it was a mistake, but that is what I was thinking at the time.

Re: 50/100 4 handed
 

I just read he got stacked the hand before. Now I def think this is a fold. He could easily shove k10 foe value here

Re: 50/100 4 handed
 

def fold

Re: 50/100 4 handed
 

Turbo muck it.

Flop sucks but you know that.

Re: 50/100 4 handed
 

This is a really tough decision and basically it all comes down to your opponent and the history between you guys. It is my opinion that you should try to avoid situations like this with your preflop action. I dont HATE calling here preflop but I think raising and folding both are superior oop here. Although of course you need to mix it up. I guess that alot of people might disagree with me here but i'm gonna stick with it...

Re: 50/100 4 handed
 

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I just read he got stacked the hand before. Now I def think this is a fold. He could easily shove k10 foe value here

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No, I stacked someone else the hand b4, he got stacked recently tho by some1 else.

Re: 50/100 4 handed
 

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I just intuited he got stacked the hand before. Now I def think this is a fold. He could easily shove k10 foe value here

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No, I stacked someone else the hand b4, he got stacked recently tho by some1 else.

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Re: 50/100 4 handed
 

although the answer depends very much on the flow of the match, i strongly lean towards a fold. villain could be overbetting pot since from his perspective you have played this hand like you either have air or a strong enough hand to call a big bet. therefore, if villain has any kind of good hand then it is higher ev to overbet here. of course villain could be thinking one level deeper in which case this is a call. since you don't have extensive history and since the likelihood of someone thinking at a deeper level goes down, it seems more likely that villain has a hand.

Re: 50/100 4 handed
 

cant believe all the responses saying fold. is it because of chat or do you fold otherwise too?

Re: 50/100 4 handed
 

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although the answer depends very much on the flow of the match, i strongly lean towards a fold. villain could be overbetting pot since from his perspective you have played this hand like you either have air or a strong enough hand to call a big bet. therefore, if villain has any kind of good hand then it is higher ev to overbet here. of course villain could be thinking one level deeper in which case this is a call. since you don't have extensive history and since the likelihood of someone thinking at a deeper level goes down, it seems more likely that villain has a hand.

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Yes, this is a situation where the flow of the game makes the reasonably difficult decision a bit easier. A spot where 10000nl players like yourself make gut feeling reads and the information we have been given isn't necessarily enough to make a decision. In other words, the game theory aspect of the hand is not really as important in this hand as is the game flow.

Re: 50/100 4 handed
 

I think I'd fold, I don't know too much about this guy, but if he plays anything remotely like a prima reg he's gonna get it in on this flop with a draw a lot. Especially since you're likely 3betting many of the hands that hit this board and thus aren't representing a whole lot. Though I don't know how he views your c/rs aside from this and I suppose he could play a draw slower if he believes you're not full of [censored] here very often. Plus, if he does get to the turn with a draw, he's certainly betting some % of the time I think.

As far as the river it's unlikely he expects you to be very strong here and I think he probably folds out all the weaker hands for much less so this could easily be a shove that looks bluffy hoping for a hero call.

Re: 50/100 4 handed
 

his thought process alone, makes this a call.

Re: 50/100 4 handed
 

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cant believe all the responses saying fold. is it because of chat or do you fold otherwise too?

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i didn't really take the chat into account since these things can have so many different interpretations based on the level of the players that i don't think it adds any significant information, unless there's some history here. if this were a live game against an inexperienced player and he makes a speech, i turbo muck. it's hard to use the chat box to make a reliable enough decision in online games with decent to good players.

Re: 50/100 4 handed
 

Honestly, you should mention that you are playing a very, very nitty style for a highstakes player, playing something like 1ike 16/12, since this is definitely something that will make players way more prone to make big bluffs on you here as well as in general.

Re: 50/100 4 handed
 

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Honestly, you should mention that you are playing a very, very nitty style for a highstakes player, playing something like 1ike 16/12, since this is definitely something that will make players way more prone to make big bluffs on you here as well as in general.

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18/15 when it is 6max, but whatever, more aggressive the more shorthanded it is.

Re: 50/100 4 handed
 

I guess my sample of 16/11 over 1k+ hands is heavily skewed then.

Re: 50/100 4 handed
 

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I guess my sample of 16/11 over 1k+ hands is heavily skewed then.

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im loling

Re: 50/100 4 handed
 

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18/15 when it is 6max

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Yeah....rrrrigght