NL$200| Do I let drunkenboxer off the hook?
 

Villain is O-drunkenboxer. I've not seen him 4-bet me yet but there is a fair bit back if I push. I know he'll fold to a push often but who risks flat calling with AA here? All to often I do this and find a K or Q on the flop and start to get "zomg, zomg, they have a set" panic! I'm still a little at the stage in this level where I lean towards low variance easy profit in this sort of spot than going for maximum profit. I suspect against this villain I have to flat call preflop to maximize. Thoughts.

Full Tilt Poker, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

Hero (BTN): $213.15
SB: $287.70
BB: $304.70
UTG: $206
UTG+1: $40.45
MP1: $77.65
MP2: $193.80
CO: $274.35

Pre-Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BTN)
2 folds, MP1 calls $2, MP2 folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $10</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $30</font>, 3 folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $85</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $213</font>, CO folds

Results: $175 Pot
Hero mucked A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and WON $175 (+$90 NET)

Re: NL$200| Do I let drunkenboxer off the hook?
 

I think you're right, calling his 3bet and then pushing over his flop CB is better to maximize profit here than pushig PF.

Re: NL$200| Do I let drunkenboxer off the hook?
 

given that he'll "fold to a push often", you should call.

the fact is that you can't fold this pre or post flop no matter what flops. if he flops a set oh well.

however, this shouldn't be your standard with AA, because you can definitely lose action postflop against JJ-KK/AK when villian flops unfavorably.

Re: NL$200| Do I let drunkenboxer off the hook?
 

If you call his $85 raise, he is not getting proper implied odds to call for set value. So even if you always pay him off if he hits, and he never pays you off if he misses, you turn a long term profit by calling and getting it in post-flop. And of course, you will not always pay him off, and he will stack off pretty often with KK/QQ on a 9-high flop. So you shouldn't be concerned about getting outflopped at all.

The other issue is: if he has AK, he might call the preflop all-in, but checkfold a low flop if you only call his 4-bet. So it comes down to reads: how likely is he to stack off preflop vs. postflop, and how likely is he to have KK vs AK here?

Re: NL$200| Do I let drunkenboxer off the hook?
 

Boxer would c/f AK if I call. He'll also fold AK to a shove preflop. The more I think about it the more I know the only correct play vs this villain is to call. I guess it's sort of reverse tilt that I pushed. For one, I figured he often had the other AA or KK since he never 4-bets me and, most importantly, I'd been running a little bad and viewed this as an opportunity to get a whole stack in with the nuts when I'd already secured $90 of profit.

Re: NL$200| Do I let drunkenboxer off the hook?
 

If there are no better starting hands than yours, and you know that for a fact, perhaps there's a case for easing up PF at some stage and have a look at the flop.

Re: NL$200| Do I let drunkenboxer off the hook?
 

It is a rare situation, where I can miniraise with AA.
He can call you with AK, JJ, TT etc or push with KK/QQ, but he can fold if you push.
Anyway this time it is better vs bad player IMHO.

Re: NL$200| Do I let drunkenboxer off the hook?
 

0_drunkenb0xer: What shall I do? Someone just 4 bet me?? Should I fold KK?
mario_jr: I don't know, let's look at our leader's strategy guide. Yep, it is on page 96, folding KK preflop if someone 4 bets me all in.
full_tilting: Don't do anything until I am back, click TIME. *Yelling from the washroom.*
0_drunkenb0xer: What to do? What to do? What to do? *Click TIME on all tables he is playing.*
0_drunkenb0xer: *Used up the all the time bank and was forced to fold*

Re: NL$200| Do I let drunkenboxer off the hook?
 

[ QUOTE ]
0_drunkenb0xer: What shall I do? Someone just 4 bet me?? Should I fold KK?
mario_jr: I don't know, let's look at our leader's strategy guide. Yep, it is on page 96, folding KK preflop if someone 4 bets me all in.
full_tilting: Don't do anything until I am back, click TIME. *Yelling from the washroom.*
0_drunkenb0xer: What to do? What to do? What to do? *Click TIME on all tables he is playing.*
0_drunkenb0xer: *Used up the all the time bank and was forced to fold*

[/ QUOTE ]

lol.

pg 96 though? i'm pretty sure it all fits on 1 piece of looseleaf.

Re: NL$200| Do I let drunkenboxer off the hook?
 

In some ways this relates to Renton's recent post about disguising hands with similar lines. If you shove, you are playing with your cards face up, which is never a good thing. If you call, you are now playing a range of hands, and letting doubt and uncertainty work for you.

Re: NL$200| Do I let drunkenboxer off the hook?
 

[ QUOTE ]

0_drunkenb0xer: What shall I do? Someone just 4 bet me?? Should I fold KK?
mario_jr: I don't know, let's look at our leader's strategy guide. Yep, it is on page 96, folding KK preflop if someone 4 bets me all in.
full_tilting: Don't do anything until I am back, click TIME. *Yelling from the washroom.*
0_drunkenb0xer: What to do? What to do? What to do? *Click TIME on all tables he is playing.*
0_drunkenb0xer: *Used up the all the time bank and was forced to fold*

[/ QUOTE ]

LMAO - 5 star =D =D

Re: NL$200| Do I let drunkenboxer off the hook?
 

[ QUOTE ]
0_drunkenb0xer: What shall I do? Someone just 4 bet me?? Should I fold KK?
mario_jr: I don't know, let's look at our leader's strategy guide. Yep, it is on page 96, folding KK preflop if someone 4 bets me all in.
full_tilting: Don't do anything until I am back, click TIME. *Yelling from the washroom.*
0_drunkenb0xer: What to do? What to do? What to do? *Click TIME on all tables he is playing.*
0_drunkenb0xer: *Used up the all the time bank and was forced to fold*

[/ QUOTE ]

ROTFLMAO - brilliant [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] Worryingly accurate I suspect!

Re: NL$200| Do I let drunkenboxer off the hook?
 

[ QUOTE ]
In some ways this relates to Renton's recent post about disguising hands with similar lines. If you shove, you are playing with your cards face up, which is never a good thing. If you call, you are now playing a range of hands, and letting doubt and uncertainty work for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree in theory. However, I probably only call with AA-KK here and QQ IF I'm willing to go broke on any board less than Q-high - I never call AK here. However, my shoving range is probably AA-KK+AK (note QQ is dropped). I've not done the maths (and can't be bothered) but if he knew that shoving range he might have to call with QQ and defo has to call KK. If this 4-betting routine continued I'd have to open up both those ranges of course.

Re: NL$200| Do I let drunkenboxer off the hook?
 

[ QUOTE ]
In some ways this relates to Renton's recent post about disguising hands with similar lines. If you shove, you are playing with your cards face up, which is never a good thing. If you call, you are now playing a range of hands, and letting doubt and uncertainty work for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

it only turns your hand face up in the minds of people that think ppl never felt worse than KK

if he 4bets AA, KK, QQ, AKs and only calls the shove with AA, you can shove lots of stuff

for example in this hand if you shove with 65s you lose $86 in ev each time he has AA, but gain a whopping $119 when he folds

therefore even if he 4bet range was KK+ you'd still be +EV to shove, vs the 4bet/call range there, you'd have an absolutely absurd EV of $63/hand with 65s

ironically 72o has an ev(shove) of $50

Re: NL$200| Do I let drunkenboxer off the hook?
 

[ QUOTE ]
my shoving range is probably AA-KK+AK (note QQ is dropped). I've not done the maths (and can't be bothered) but if he knew that shoving range he might have to call with QQ and defo has to call KK

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.fraudchronicles.com/image...ng-money-2.jpg

Re: NL$200| Do I let drunkenboxer off the hook?
 

[ QUOTE ]
0_drunkenb0xer: What shall I do? Someone just 4 bet me?? Should I fold KK?
mario_jr: I don't know, let's look at our leader's strategy guide. Yep, it is on page 96, folding KK preflop if someone 4 bets me all in.
full_tilting: Don't do anything until I am back, click TIME. *Yelling from the washroom.*
0_drunkenb0xer: What to do? What to do? What to do? *Click TIME on all tables he is playing.*
0_drunkenb0xer: *Used up the all the time bank and was forced to fold*

[/ QUOTE ]

v funny bc its probably true...

as far as the hand goes...against drunkenboxer/mariojr/fulltilting, i would just call his 4 bet and get it in on practically every flop