I almost always fold to 3-bets...when can I call?
 

I'm mostly NL25, and NL50 player.

I feel fairly comfortable with most players and situations...but I never feel comfort when I get 3-bet into. I think I'm folding way too much.

So, what I'm looking for is some information on what you guys look for in order to call. Obviously position is important, how aggressive they are.

However, what kind of hands are you looking to call these 3-bets with? If they do it more than once to you, do you open your calling range up a lot more?

I'd just feel better if I had some basic things to think about when getting 3-bet at these stakes other than "I have AQ, or 66...there's no way I want to play that big of a pot OOP with this when they probably have AA."

Any info appreciated.

Re: I almost always fold to 3-bets...when can I call?
 

4BET IF YOU KEEP GETTING 3BET?

Re: I almost always fold to 3-bets...when can I call?
 

[ QUOTE ]
4BET IF YOU KEEP GETTING 3BET?

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while this feels like a BBV forum response, I'll write that down...thanks.

to those taking this more seriously...I'm not suggesting that I'm getting 3 bet over and over...I'm just talking about when it does happen...which is every now and then when 12-tabling.

Re: I almost always fold to 3-bets...when can I call?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not suggesting that I'm getting 3 bet over and over...I'm just talking about when it does happen...which is every now and then when 12-tabling.

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Well that probably shows they have a premium hand every now and then [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

See, when you have, say, QQ and are first to act, there is a chance of ~8% or so that someone has AA or KK at a full table, which is one time in twelve or so. (If they are habitual limp-reraisers, there´s the same chance if you are last to act.) I assume that comes under the headline "every now and then".

If I have AQ and they 3-bet, I think "thanks for telling me" and fold my hand. As for the likes of 66, it really depends on wether or not they are giving me the odds to setmine.

Again: this refers to that "every now and then" situation, barring gamblers, bullys, and unskilled short stackers.

Re: I almost always fold to 3-bets...when can I call?
 

Honestly I think it's really read dependent. The stats and tendencies of your opponent should go a long way to helping you make this decision. I'm not sure how NL25 and NL50 plays compared to NL 200, but I really think a good percentage of the time when up against respectable players you can confine them to a range of AA/KK/QQ/AK, which means you're right to fold most of the time, depending on what you have. If you think somebody is picking on you, then you can call or 4-bet with slightly lesser hands. Most of the time though you're probably better off waiting for better spots.

Another key to this is what YOUR raising range is. If you are constantly raising in position with a really wide range, people are obviously going to be more likely to play back at you and in that case you expand your calling/4-betting range a bit. But make sure the opponent playing back at you is capable of that kind of play or you're going to be up against the nuts far too often.

Re: I almost always fold to 3-bets...when can I call?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly I think it's really read dependent. The stats and tendencies of your opponent should go a long way to helping you make this decision. I'm not sure how NL25 and NL50 plays compared to NL 200, but I really think a good percentage of the time when up against respectable players you can confine them to a range of AA/KK/QQ/AK, which means you're right to fold most of the time, depending on what you have. If you think somebody is picking on you, then you can call or 4-bet with slightly lesser hands. Most of the time though you're probably better off waiting for better spots.

Another key to this is what YOUR raising range is. If you are constantly raising in position with a really wide range, people are obviously going to be more likely to play back at you and in that case you expand your calling/4-betting range a bit. But make sure the opponent playing back at you is capable of that kind of play or you're going to be up against the nuts far too often.

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Great stuff. Exactly what I wanted to hear. Sounds like I'm doing what I should.

Re: I almost always fold to 3-bets...when can I call?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you think somebody is picking on you, then you can call or 4-bet with slightly lesser hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true, but don´t get carried away with it.
Specificaly AQ can be dangerous when it hits, or say JJ when you make an overpair, as these hands look very strong then but against a tight player, you are in trouble often, and out of position, so implied odds are against you.

Re: I almost always fold to 3-bets...when can I call?
 

Depending on chip stacks I'm more likely to draw with drawing hands rather than with hands that I wanted to be the aggressor with preflop. For instance if I have K/Qo and get 3 bet, I'm likely folding because it's so easy to be dominated here.

However, if I have something like 6/7s and I try to bet from CO or Button and get 3 bet, if the stack sizes are right I'm calling and hoping to stack off with the right flop.

Re: I almost always fold to 3-bets...when can I call?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If I have AQ and they 3-bet, I think "thanks for telling me" and fold my hand.

[/ QUOTE ]This is what makes 3betting people with hands like 89s very profitable.

I mean, I usually fold AQ to a 3bet, but I do pay attention and if it seems like someone is 3betting a little more often than they should I'll sometimes 4bet with a hand like AK or AQ (since these hands make AA less likely, have the chance to outflop a tricky QQ+ player who just smooth calls, and are easy to comfortably fold to a 5bet shove).

Another trick I sometimes use is if I notice a particular player is getting out of line with 3bets, I'll open for a minraise with AK/AQ with a plan to 4bet if I am raised- this has the dual effect of inducing light 3betting and making my 4bet a little bit cheaper. I only do this if I've been mixing up my PF betting sizes and minraising with some hands (Which I haven't been doing lately). It is REALLY hard for most decent players to call a minraise/4bet line with anything but a premium hand.

Re: I almost always fold to 3-bets...when can I call?
 

NFuego said what I was going to say so I won't add much.

To his point, you need to look at your image and villains:

- If the 3-bettor is 12/5/2, it makes sense to give him a wide berth unless your implied odds are good if you hit and you think he'll stack off with an overpair.

- If the 3-bettor is 32/16/4, 4-betting probably makes sense since his range is so wide.

Similarly, if you've been tight from EP and get reraised you need to give more credence to the 3-bet than if you've been loose from late position and are getting repopped from an alert player from the blinds.

Good luck.

Re: I almost always fold to 3-bets...when can I call?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If the 3-bettor is 32/16/4, 4-betting probably makes sense since his range is so wide

[/ QUOTE ]Here's the problem I have with this logic: Are we 4-betting because villain is loose and will call with worse hands, or are we 4-betting because villain is loose and will 3-bet us with worse hands, but will fold to our obvious display of strength? It seems dangerous to make a play expecting loose players to fold. But maybe I'm just a little girl when it comes to playing back at loose players.

The other problem I have with this logic (and not saying that it is flawed; it could be my perspective) is that knowing how often someone puts money in the pot or raises is not the same thing as knowing how often someone 3-bets. That is, he can be super loose and still have a 3-bet range of exactly AA/KK.

For a 4-bet to be successful (assuming we want a fold, that is) villain has to be
a) aggressive enough (which is not the same thing as loose enough) that he's 3-betting us with something other than KK+

b) tight enough to fold whatever he thought was good enough to 3-bet to our 4-bet.

It is hard to derive these two facts from non-3bet stats, but if I were a betting man (and I am [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]), I would think that the higher a player's VPIP, the less of a chance that b is true.

The other issue with 4betting loose players is, the looser a player is the more of a chance he isn't really thinking about the game beyond basic "I have a hand" or "I feel like making a bluff now" mentality- that is to say, your image may not have been considered at all thus far, nor might it really factor into that players decision to call or fold.

Of course I've been assuming we want folds when we 4bet. I realize that in general we WANT loose calls, but with so many people who like to slow play monsters and only 3-bet KK+, how comfortable are we going to be playing a monster pot after villain calls if our hand is only of moderate strength? But maybe I'm looking at it wrong. Should I be happy to play a monster pot with a high VPIP player and a hand like AQ?

Because of this I almost never 3-bet loose players and I only play back at the 3-bets of tight/aggressive players who seem to be getting out of line.

Just my thoughts. I think about this stuff every time I deal with loose players. I do go after TAGs because I know they'll raise with AJ and AQ and fold them to 3-bets, but I have a feeling I'm probably leaving money on the table by avoiding looser players without super premo hands. That being said, it's a steep, expensive learning curve to figure some of this stuff out, so I am VERY interested in what others have to say on the subject.

Re: I almost always fold to 3-bets...when can I call?
 

"Another key to this is what YOUR raising range is. If you are constantly raising in position with a really wide range, people are obviously going to be more likely to play back at you and in that case you expand your calling/4-betting range a bit. But make sure the opponent playing back at you is capable of that kind of play or you're going to be up against the nuts far too often. "


For example, if you are raising on the button with 30% of your hands, an opponent might start reraising with something like the top 15% of the hands, which is probably a wider range than you have in mind as a default holding. If you, in turn, fold everything except the top 1.5%, i.e QQ+, to the reraise, the opponent is coming out ahead in the long run.

However, you might have wait quite a few hands to get that kind of read on someone. Against an unknown, figure that he will play tighter until you see different.