Interesting flop situation with AT
 

This is a very loose table. The three bettor was 29.7 vpip and fairly passive post flop, no stats no reads on the SB his second hand at the table.

Full Tilt 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (10 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO folds, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, SB calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls.

River: (12.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB

My main question is how you play the flop. I can't remember being in this type of situation before. Someone donk into two people who have both raised ahead of him. Meanwhile I flopped a monster, in the middle. I considered smooth calling and inducing a raise from the CO. He was fairly passive though post flop.

I chose to raise, he didn't come along anyway, but...

Would you have done it the same way? I was at a loss during this hand.

Re: Interesting flop situation with AT
 

you can also watch me hang my head in shame.

Looks good to me.

Re: Interesting flop situation with AT
 

Definitely raise the flop and hope CO holds AK.

Against an unknown SB, I'd consider calling his 3-bet and raising on the turn.

Re: Interesting flop situation with AT
 

[ QUOTE ]
you can also c-r the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

X - Hang your head in shame.

Re: Interesting flop situation with AT
 

I think the flop is close between a call down and cap. Looks like he has over played AK, AQ the way the hand has gone down.

Also, smooth calling to induce a raise from CO isnt really that good an idea as he basically has to have AK, AQ, AJ for it to work. If he has you beat you going to spew and he will probably fold (as in the hand) when he has KK, QQ, JJ.

Re: Interesting flop situation with AT
 

aaronisrite.

Re: Interesting flop situation with AT
 

I play it exactly the same, but I never know when to call the flop with the intention of raising a turn and imo, most of the time, the difference is small. I think around 0.5bb. Or we consider 0.5bb to be big? I guess it might take you 50 hands to earn 0.5bb in the long run.

Anyway...Take this hand for example.

When you call the flop 3-bet and raise the turn...

If SB calls your turn raise and a river bet, you get 4.5bb. Nice.
If SB folds to your turn raise, you get 2.5bb. Not bad.

If you cap the flop and get a bet on each street, you get 4bb. Nice.
If you cap the flop and SB c/f the turn, you gain 2bb. Not bad.
I guess SB might fold to the cap, where you will only get 1.5bb. Meh.



Now there is a slight chance you are behind...

If you raise the turn and SB 3-bets, you are now getting ~13:1 with maybe 4 outs (his most likely hands here would be TT/55, wighted slightly to the 55, which you have 4 outs against), so you kinda have to call. If you don't improve on the river, you kinda have to call too because you are still getting like 15:1 with top-two pair. In this case it has cost you 5.5bb to showdown a loser. That hurts.

Yes I know that is not all that likely. Whatever, I'm just writing out loud.

Re: Interesting flop situation with AT
 

Looks fine to me. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Interesting flop situation with AT
 

* g *

Nice hand.

Slowplaying with two pairs is not my thing, in general. If your read was that CO is passive then your raise was good. I think CO still would have hanged around with AJ+ most of the time. He probably mucked JJ-KK.

As for the flop cap. Villain looks like he has either AA, TT, A5, another AT or 55 (T5 not likely).

Losing:
AA = 1 combo (would have capped preflop)
TT = 3
55 = 3 (not a common "3bet cold call hand" to 4-3 way pot, even from SB)
= max 7

Winning:
A5 = 6 (not very likely to cold call 3-bet either)
AK/AQ/AJ getting out of line = max 24

Splitting:
AT = 4

In this light your line looks good. Moreover, you're in position and will have some control over how much bets go in before showdown.

Re: Interesting flop situation with AT
 

[ QUOTE ]
Definitely raise the flop and hope CO holds AK.

Against an unknown SB, I'd consider calling his 3-bet and raising on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this. SB's range has to be weighted towards AK-AJ and he will lead with them most of the if we just call the 3-bet.

Re: Interesting flop situation with AT
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think the flop is close between a call down and cap.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is close. Cap flop and you can call down if villain leads the turn. Don't worry about trying to keep the CO in the hand. He will come along anyways if he has an ace, otherwise he will fold.

Re: Interesting flop situation with AT
 

I probably would have called and raised the turn given that the board was not scary .. facing a draw scary board with two suited cards etc.. I think capping the flop is good.

Re: Interesting flop situation with AT
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the flop is close between a call down and cap.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is close. Cap flop and you can call down if villain leads the turn. Don't worry about trying to keep the CO in the hand. He will come along anyways if he has an ace, otherwise he will fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Knockonwood was discussing the decision whether to cap or call down after SB 3-bet at which point CO has already folded.

And if you read the rest of his post you notice he doesn't advocate smoothcalling the initial raise to keep CO in the pot either.

Re: Interesting flop situation with AT
 

:Grunch:

I kind of like your idea of calling the first flop bet and letting the CO contribute some money to the pot. The CO's hand is fairly well defined from his pre-flop 3bet and you're loving your top-two pair against his range.

However your decision to raise right away seems fine and so I'll try to think through your next flop decision.

This is a very interesting situation. Unknown small blind ccalls 2.5 bets out of position and then bets into two pre-flop raisers on a flop with no flush draw, no open ended straight draw, and is likely to hit pre-flop raising hands. After his 3-bet we should try to put him on a range of hands that makes sense for a reasonable player and also remember that he's an unknown at a micro table and anything's possible.

AA? Possibly. He saw two raises in front of him preflop and might have hoped that by simply calling he hides his strength and if lucky Hero caps it for him with JJ-KK or AK.
TT Definite possiblity.
55 Definite possiblity. (So many players can never lay down pockets preflop).
A5 Would be a bad preflop call, but possible especially if it's sooted.
AJ-AK Possibly but the 3-bet wouldn't make a lot of sense without top kicker.
T5? Doubtful because of preflop.
Anything else: Very unlikely for a reasonable player

Villian's line is very very strange to me and I think after his flop 3-bet, I'd be interested in seeing the showdown without going too crazy. I call the flop 3 bet, call the turn bet, call the river bet. If he checks the turn, I'm checking behind. If he checks the river, I'm bet/calling.

The main reason I don't like your flop cap is that you're setting yourself up to lose the maximum to a set unless you can fold the turn to a check/raise. I'd hate to do that against an unknown, which is why I'm taking the wimpy line.

With your line, would you have folded the turn to a check raise?

EDIT: After reading the thread, I agree that raising the initial flop bet is better than calling. Also calling the three-bet with the intention of raising the turn sounds great if AJ-AK seems the most likely, but villain's line is screaming a set to me. I guess I'm just rusty from not playing much for the past year.

Re: Interesting flop situation with AT
 

Thank you all for your responses.

[ QUOTE ]
This is a very interesting situation. Unknown small blind ccalls 2.5 bets out of position and then bets into two pre-flop raisers on a flop with no flush draw, no open ended straight draw, and is likely to hit pre-flop raising hands. After his 3-bet we should try to put him on a range of hands that makes sense for a reasonable player and also remember that he's an unknown at a micro table and anything's possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes very interesting situation, you often see players donk into previous street raisers, often out of position like this, and we are forced to make a tough decision, with the original raiser behind us. What I was not used to seeing is someone donk into two preflop raisers, after calling 2.5 bets cold. Meanwhile holding a monster myself, caught in the middle. It was one of those hands when during the hand, I thought, "Wow, I can't wait to post this one."

[ QUOTE ]
Definitely raise the flop and hope CO holds AK.

Against an unknown SB, I'd consider calling his 3-bet and raising on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a line I hadn't considered at the time, my main focus was to get the money in on the flop because I didn't think that villain had me beat I put him on AJ or AQo I figured most will cap AK+... and he obviously isn't to worried about position donking into the raising field like he did.

I like this line you suggested and will have to consider it next time im in this type of situation.

[ QUOTE ]
With your line, would you have folded the turn to a check raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Against a known player who I have some stats and or reads on. I can make this lay down, providing that my stats/reads tell me some information. However, in this situation. I would b/c turn and c/c river, in order to make a not on this player. ie, "calls 3bet cold with 55 out of position, C/R turn with flopped set." However, as I said, I didn't feel behind here. I put him on AJ-AK and I never felt my read was wrong, during the hand.

Also, he left the table after this hand, and I never did get to make a note... [/sad]

Thank you again for your input everyone.

Re: Interesting flop situation with AT
 

[ QUOTE ]
The three bettor was 29.7 vpip and fairly passive post flop, no stats no reads on the SB his second hand at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

But what does CO RAISE pf, especially what does he 3bet? And you have no reads on SB, but he cool-calls 2.5 preflop against 2 opponents and then leads this flop? I seriously have to wonder if SB had 55...

Your read on CO isn't right to smooth-call, here, you want him to be aggro postflop so you can either call/raise the flop or check/raise the turn. So raising is the right thing to do on the flop the first time around (you're going to raise the turn and lose him there, anyway). Once CO folds and SB treys, I think you're just as well served to call down, tho. If he checks to you anywhere, you bet of course.

Re: Interesting flop situation with AT
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, he left the table after this hand, and I never did get to make a note... [/sad]

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] You can keep player notes in PT, y'know?

He did have 55? Well, it's really 6 of one, half-dozen of the other, I just don't see that many unknowns that are going to play this way without at least two-pair, which leaves you beating 6 combos, chopping with 4 combos, and losing to 4 combos (5 if you include AA that he cool-called pf). That puts you pretty close to a coinflip.

Re: Interesting flop situation with AT
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, he left the table after this hand, and I never did get to make a note... [/sad]

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] You can keep player notes in PT, y'know?

He did have 55? Well, it's really 6 of one, half-dozen of the other, I just don't see that many unknowns that are going to play this way without at least two-pair, which leaves you beating 6 combos, chopping with 4 combos, and losing to 4 combos (5 if you include AA that he cool-called pf). That puts you pretty close to a coinflip.

[/ QUOTE ]



<font color="white"> He had AK </font>

Re: Interesting flop situation with AT
 

:grunch:

I play exactly the same. Two-pair is too vunerable.

A question I have is what would you do if the SB bet the turn? Do you call down or continue firing?

Re: Interesting flop situation with AT
 

[ QUOTE ]
:grunch:
Two-pair is too vunerable.


[/ QUOTE ]

does that mean you want Ax to fold?

Re: Interesting flop situation with AT
 

[ QUOTE ]
does that mean you want Ax to fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I was thinking the flop raise would get the CO to fold a GSSD, which it may have. Sry, should have been clearer [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]