10-20 vs argoe
 

HH is from memory...Just want to check my line to make sure I did in fact botch every betting round

KQs $2k effective stacks. villain is redargoe, 4 handed

villain raised to 80, i call on button, blinds fold

flop Q46r, V bets 120, I raise small to 300 he calls
turn 2, check, check
river 8 no flushes, check, I bet $350 trying to squeeze out value, villain shoves...about $1300 back to me which is pot now.

Re: 10-20 vs argoe
 

im folding he has KK

Re: 10-20 vs argoe
 

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im folding he has KK

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lol he doesnt have KK but knowing red he probably has something that has u beat. i like re raising preflop as well, but either is fine rkly

Re: 10-20 vs argoe
 

U dont 3 bet this in position?

Re: 10-20 vs argoe
 

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U dont 3 bet this in position?

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I do a decent amount of the time...Like I said I botched every round of betting.

Re: 10-20 vs argoe
 

good line by him

sadly i think were face up so...this is pretty player dependent
i know u said u botched it but, bet if i can raise the flop for value im prolly betting all the following streets for value too

anyway, guess a default is a fold here but he must know you have almost exactly KQ

Re: 10-20 vs argoe
 

i prefer just calling the flop

Re: 10-20 vs argoe
 

not 3-betting is fine

i dont like your river bet. His range for calling your flop raise is prob mostly better queens, sets, overpairs, maaybe 57.

I dont think your river bet will get value from any hand in that range you beat and it may convince him to turn lots of hands with showdown value (JJ, TT) into bluffs. I think a bigger bet has a better chance of being called by one of those hands.

I think i would rather bet the turn than the river. I dont think redargoe is a great dude to bet/call this river with

Re: 10-20 vs argoe
 

Why can't this be a bluff? we check behind on turn which is either air that took a stab on the flop, or a mediocre hand that doesn't want to face a raise on the turn

therefore he knows the river bet is a slim value bet, you checked the turn to snap call any river bluff, so a river cr is his best move

Re: 10-20 vs argoe
 

he has 44....fold

Re: 10-20 vs argoe
 

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Why can't this be a bluff? we check behind on turn which is either air that took a stab on the flop, or a mediocre hand that doesn't want to face a raise on the turn

therefore he knows the river bet is a slim value bet, you checked the turn to snap call any river bluff, so a river cr is his best move

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so you're saying red OOP floated with air after that flop raise with the intention of C/Ring river AI...

Re: 10-20 vs argoe
 

i wouldnt raise the flop. but if you do against him, it should be to try to check it down. he let you, i'd do it. now i'd fold once you get c/r'ed.

Re: 10-20 vs argoe
 

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i wouldnt raise the flop. but if you do against him, it should be to try to check it down. he let you, i'd do it. now i'd fold once you get c/r'ed.

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the flop raise tilts me, but nto as much as the river bet

Re: 10-20 vs argoe
 

did you just agree with me? you MUST have been tilted by this hand...

Re: 10-20 vs argoe
 

fold, this is 57 or a set like always

Re: 10-20 vs argoe
 

hard not to agree with the flop bet being retardo. It just makes the hand play really weird, i dunno. if i did decide that this was the kind of player I would like to raise the flop against, I would be making it a bit bigger with the intention of snap calling a shove, but this is probably not the player to do that kind of thing against.

preflop is fine, but I would like to bet the turn and check the river. As played I would just check the river, from what i have heard he is not very spewy and won't be c/c this river with a lot of worse hands, your line looks pretty much like exactly what you have.

Re: 10-20 vs argoe
 

I really hate a 3 bet with just KQ against him.

Flop raise is pretty bad, its just giving him an opportunity to play perfectly against you. You can only get away with raising for value on a dry board like this if you've been bluffing a lot on the same boards. Even then ur getting urself into tricky spots, what if he min-raises or calls and leads turn?

As played, I like your turn check, after he calls his hand range is better than your KQ on average. Betting for value on this turn is terrible imo. With a dry board like this he can throw you rope with any hand that beats you.

After a river check I don't hate a slim value bet but its still close. Usually if he's putting you on AQ or worse you're going to see him leading here with AQ or better. Still, when he comes over the top you're beat. For calling to be ok you need a few of things to happen:
1. He thinks ur raising KQ on the flop and worse
2. He thinks you're betting KQ and worse on the river
3. He thinks you're folding KQ and worse on the river

Its just much more likely he's check/deciding with 88-QJ, and with a hand worse than that its usually a min-reraise or fold situation on the flop.

Re: 10-20 vs argoe
 

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Usually if he's putting you on AQ or worse you're going to see him leading here with AQ or better.

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what? noooo. leading this river is prett ymuch wrong for any hand that red can have. anything that is calling a river bet is betting when checked to, which makes reds hand eas y to play. since you're never checking the turn with anything that beats AQ, say, and the 8 rarely makes your hand better, and you almost never bet half pot with anything that can call a CR, he should CRAI with 99 or TT or wahtever and turn it into a bluff, since KQ is like the strongest hand in your range.

so like, you let him play this hand pretty much perfectly, and he should CRAI with 100% of his range (the except perhaps is the other KQ, and maybe QJ), but you should still fold becuase of how weird you played the rest of the hand, and the fact that you can't know how he'll react to the w ay you played it (and if you did, you didn't include it in op)

Re: 10-20 vs argoe
 

agree with your post in general, but "anything that is calling a river bet is betting when checked to". for instance, KQ should check but potentially call a bet (I'd fold, though, against red).

Re: 10-20 vs argoe
 

fold... Red has made a few moves vs me cause he knows i think hes a nit, but i really doubt he is doin anything crazy in this spot.

Re: 10-20 vs argoe
 

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Usually if he's putting you on AQ or worse you're going to see him leading here with AQ or better.

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what? noooo. leading this river is prett ymuch wrong for any hand that red can have. anything that is calling a river bet is betting when checked to, which makes reds hand eas y to play. since you're never checking the turn with anything that beats AQ, say, and the 8 rarely makes your hand better, and you almost never bet half pot with anything that can call a CR, he should CRAI with 99 or TT or wahtever and turn it into a bluff, since KQ is like the strongest hand in your range.

so like, you let him play this hand pretty much perfectly, and he should CRAI with 100% of his range (the except perhaps is the other KQ, and maybe QJ), but you should still fold becuase of how weird you played the rest of the hand, and the fact that you can't know how he'll react to the w ay you played it (and if you did, you didn't include it in op)

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I actually agree that check-raising this river as a value-bet is a superior play I'm just saying that as a general statement when someone checks this river to you it usually means KQ is good. Redargoe is a decent player but he's 12 tabling and I dont think he's aware enough to pick up when a check-raise is slightly better than the obvious value-bet lead.

Check-raising this river as a bluff is just bad because people don't fold TPGK that often, and you would have to be sure he's betting it like this in the first place. Again, even if you want to argue that it is slightly good its not something that a player like Redargoe uses.

Re: 10-20 vs argoe
 

c/r this river as a bluff looks terrible to me. a)OP can very very easily have the nuts here and b)line looks weird so OP may not fold top pair. both those reasons make this look very bad for bluffing. nice time for value c/r, though, since as AEMFJ said, most hands that will call a bet will also value bet if checked to.

Re: 10-20 vs argoe
 

I folded. I agree my hand is face up so he would be pushing all better, but I was wondering how often he would be pushing worse as a bluff(JJ, TT). I guess not often enough. I knew this hand would make mcgipp's head asplode.

Re: 10-20 vs argoe
 

Hmm 6handed against an UTG raiser I like your pf call way way more than here..
I call pf if Villain 4bets a lot OOP or if he has a very very tight pf raising range and I will only fold out worse hands.
Mixing it up sometimes isn't that bad but I would do it on a rare basis.
Flop is a call imho, raising on that board can be a good move in certain situations against loose spewy opponents who
know you would bluff raise a lot on these boards and reraise you so you could put it in and feel good about it...
After you've got called on the flop check turn and river (especially if he can c/r tricky).
Why do you give yourself so much trouble and raise the flop anyways?
You've got position and you hit a cute flop, this is pretty much wa/wb and by raising you won't get much money out of worse hands but get into arkward spots against better ones..