so i fold an overpair in a reraised pot (nl200)
 

i wasn't going to post this because i thought it's a pretty standerd hand, but then i read spiveys post in another topic and i thought i'd check up (villain is more weaktight than TAG though)

I think the idea of 'never fold an overpair to a TAG in a reraised pot' is pretty much always good (at least with an image of ~21/18/4 like mine is).

I run 24/20/3.2, villain is 20/13/2 after 800 hands, 26% WTSD. I haven't got a note on him which means he plays exactly like his stats suggest - weaktight.

6 handed 200nl 6max, 210$ eff

MP openlimps
CO calls
SB raises to 11$
I 3bet Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] to 30$ in the BB
limpers fold, SB calls

Flop (65$) is J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

He checks, I check behind.

I don't see what worse hands call a bet. Given preflop he never has AJ IMHO, so a bet would basicly be only to protect vs AK.

Turn (65$)is 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

He bets 40$, I call.

I showed weakness so call here seems standard. I see no value in raising.

River (145$) is 10[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

SB bets 150$, I need to call 140$ to win 285$ and fold.

Ok so 2 less combos of TT. Sweet. But I still don't see him bluffing enough with AK AQ (and both should be discounted bc of preflop call OOP) here.

Thoughts?

Re: so i fold an overpair in a reraised pot (nl200)
 

River fold seems good as played.

Your preflop raise is too small.

Re: so i fold an overpair in a reraised pot (nl200)
 

what size should my 3bet be?

Re: so i fold an overpair in a reraised pot (nl200)
 

pop him for 40~50

Re: so i fold an overpair in a reraised pot (nl200)
 

why? what worse hands are calling?

Re: so i fold an overpair in a reraised pot (nl200)
 

I like your 3b size, you have position so we dont need to scare him off. People play alot looser in 3b pots too so id be tempted to call river, also because your hand looks so much like AK from villain's perspective. But as you said, his stats make it a pretty easy river fold. Unless he's on tilt... hmmm...

I like how you played it tho

Re: so i fold an overpair in a reraised pot (nl200)
 

I would 3 bet to $44 for a variety of reasons.

The main thing though is that with your little raise you allow him to profitably call with too wide a range that will make postflop difficult.

The other thing is that if he is bad then you want to charge him as much as possible. (In other words he may call the big bet with almost as wide of a range as the small bet but with the bigger raise you are giving yourself an advantage by making effective stacks shorter for postflop play)

Re: so i fold an overpair in a reraised pot (nl200)
 

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I would 3 bet to $44 for a variety of reasons.

The main thing though is that with your little raise you allow him to profitably call with too wide a range that will make postflop difficult.

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pocket pairs can't call profitably (he's not stacking my range 100% when he hits a set), neither can suited connectors. A lot of my range is AA AK AQs here so Ax can't call profitably. What hands can call 10% off their stack OOP and show a profit?

[ QUOTE ]

The other thing is that if he is bad then you want to charge him as much as possible. (In other words he may call the big bet with almost as wide of a range as the small bet but with the bigger raise you are giving yourself an advantage by making effective stacks shorter for postflop play)

[/ QUOTE ]

that's true, but villain isn't bad he's weaktight. he might fold TT-JJ to a bigger raise and *then* we have a problem postflop. Making effective stacks shorter for postflop play is not a good thing when KK+ is a big part of his callrange.

Re: so i fold an overpair in a reraised pot (nl200)
 

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of my range is AA AK AQs here

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If this is "alot of your range" then plenty of hands can call 10% of their stack and show a profit.

Re: so i fold an overpair in a reraised pot (nl200)
 

Alot of paint has 8+ outs against you, and makes up a healthy chunk of his range. I'm not giving a free card in a pot that's already 1/3rd a buyin. I bet the flop and take it from there.

Re: so i fold an overpair in a reraised pot (nl200)
 

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Making effective stacks shorter for postflop play is not a good thing when KK+ is a big part of his callrange.

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Also if you think "KK+ is a big part of his callrange" then you might as well play full ring. I did. It sucked [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: so i fold an overpair in a reraised pot (nl200)
 

by folding this river, you are saying that his PF calling range is essentially TT+, AK .. if that's his range, and you think he folds TT/JJ to a larger (standard) 3-bet, then you probably shouldn't 3bet here.

Re: so i fold an overpair in a reraised pot (nl200)
 

[ QUOTE ]
by folding this river, you are saying that his PF calling range is essentially TT+, AK .. if that's his range, and you think he folds TT/JJ to a larger (standard) 3-bet, then you probably shouldn't 3bet here.

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Yeah, I've been thinking about his lately. 3-betting 77-JJ is actually a waste of a perfectly fine hand. If your opponent isn't calling without TT+ or AK then all you do is turn your hand into a bluff. This seems like a waste.

Re: so i fold an overpair in a reraised pot (nl200)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A lot of my range is AA AK AQs here

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If this is "alot of your range" then plenty of hands can call 10% of their stack and show a profit.

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WHAT hands? tell me i want to know! [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

i really do think when i 3bet to 44$ his callrange is like 3 combos JJ, QQ+, and he might shove AK ... he's weaktight and he raised from the small blind then called a 3bet

early, you are probably right that I shouldn't 3bet preflop ... but there are still players that have to act behind me, i want to get it headsup dont' I?

Re: so i fold an overpair in a reraised pot (nl200)
 

I call here your hand looks like 99 and he could be vbetting a jack or just str8 bluffing

Re: so i fold an overpair in a reraised pot (nl200)
 

min raise turn

Re: so i fold an overpair in a reraised pot (nl200)
 

btw, 3bet size:

i just searched the anthology and everywhere it's 4bb open, 3bet to 14bb, so this size seems standard ...

if the posters advocating a larger 3bet could link me to a thread or something, that would be nice

Re: so i fold an overpair in a reraised pot (nl200)
 

i call this river bet.

your hand is way underrepped. it looks like you have AK etc.

imo he rarel has a 10 here. would he really bet the turn for $40 with just 2nd pair? obv he could have TT or JJ i doubt it.

anyway... it looks like he has AJ or something... hit the flop but wanted to see if you had an overpair. you checked so he figures you don't. then he thinks he is valuebetting his AJ on the turn and river.

this analysis may be way off but i don't see him having a 10 and JJ 4bets pretty often. i call.

Re: so i fold an overpair in a reraised pot (nl200)
 

wow you seem to play vs different players than me guys

i don't think i've EVER seen a 20/13/2 4bet JJ in this spot (and i also think he doesn't raise pf with AJo and he doesn't call preflop wit AJs, nor does he valuebet it this hard)

Re: so i fold an overpair in a reraised pot (nl200)
 

vs a tricky / good tag i think your hand is face up and u have to decide if hes overbetting with KK+, JJ/TT to induce a call with your obvious QQ/AJ, or if hes trying to bluff you off your obvious QQ/AJ with like 99/AK or something.

Since hes 20/13 and probably not that good, his overbet is almost definitely > QQ, and if he is bluffing its no where near 1 in 3 times.

i say your hand is faceup once you call the turn because i think you are betting this flop with most of your range that missed or hit hard, and folding the turn with the rest. There aren't many hands you should have here with your line that make much sense.

Whatever you have its something and its not something great in his eyes unless he is just clueless.

Re: so i fold an overpair in a reraised pot (nl200)
 

surely he 4bets AA and KK pf? so that leaves exactly JJ and TT?

Re: so i fold an overpair in a reraised pot (nl200)
 

dude you cant assume his range is AA KK QQ JJ TT and AK... i mean come on. People play badly. Tons of worse hands call this flop. Id reraise to like 36 preflop and bet the flop. Evaluate from there

Re: so i fold an overpair in a reraised pot (nl200)
 

[ QUOTE ]
vs a tricky / good tag i think your hand is face up and u have to decide if hes overbetting with KK+, JJ/TT to induce a call with your obvious QQ/AJ, or if hes trying to bluff you off your obvious QQ/AJ with like 99/AK or something.

Since hes 20/13 and probably not that good, his overbet is almost definitely > QQ, and if he is bluffing its no where near 1 in 3 times.

i say your hand is faceup once you call the turn because i think you are betting this flop with most of your range that missed or hit hard, and folding the turn with the rest. There aren't many hands you should have here with your line that make much sense.

Whatever you have its something and its not something great in his eyes unless he is just clueless.

[/ QUOTE ]

imo his hand is not face up at all

Re: so i fold an overpair in a reraised pot (nl200)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
vs a tricky / good tag i think your hand is face up and u have to decide if hes overbetting with KK+, JJ/TT to induce a call with your obvious QQ/AJ, or if hes trying to bluff you off your obvious QQ/AJ with like 99/AK or something.

Since hes 20/13 and probably not that good, his overbet is almost definitely > QQ, and if he is bluffing its no where near 1 in 3 times.

i say your hand is faceup once you call the turn because i think you are betting this flop with most of your range that missed or hit hard, and folding the turn with the rest. There aren't many hands you should have here with your line that make much sense.

Whatever you have its something and its not something great in his eyes unless he is just clueless.

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imo his hand is not face up at all

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what hands other than QQ or a random jack take this line?

Re: so i fold an overpair in a reraised pot (nl200)
 

people call with weird hands. it is a fairly marginal spot and i don't think a call is wrong or a fold is wrong. i think i would call this, but it could go either way.

Re: so i fold an overpair in a reraised pot (nl200)
 

I'd raise to $35 and obv bet flop, and re-evaluate if resistance. I would be afraid of JJ here but your line to me seemed like AK?

Re: so i fold an overpair in a reraised pot (nl200)
 

I aswell like a turn minraise