Fun w/ ATs
 

Bellagio 30-60

Opponents are standard chumps.

Preflop:
The Dude raises A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in EMP. Folded to the button who calls, both blinds call.

Flop: (8 SBs) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 Players)</font>
Check, check, The Dude checks. Button bets, SB folds, BB raises. The Dude calls, button folds.

Turn: (6.5 BBs) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 Players)</font>
BB bets, The Dude calls.

River: (8.5 BBs) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
BB checks, The Dude checks.

Re: Fun w/ ATs
 

hi dude, i think i would find a fold on the flop when it's two back to us.

Re: Fun w/ ATs
 

Bet the flop.

Re: Fun w/ ATs
 

What hands are you giving the BB that you can't bet that river? And given that range, why are you calling the turn?

I would also lead the flop, but fold for two as played.

Re: Fun w/ ATs
 

I c-bet this flop 3 handed 100%.

Re: Fun w/ ATs
 

"What hands are you giving the BB that you can't bet that river? And given that range, why are you calling the turn?"

It's a question of what hands BB will call that scary river card with. Many players will check-call with two pair or a set here but fold what had been top pair on the turn.

On the turn, the Dude has as many as 10 outs and there's even a chance he has the best hand unimproved.

Re: Fun w/ ATs
 

What's c-bet?

Re: Fun w/ ATs
 

Continuation bet.

What does button have here? Small pocket pair? Anything else?

Re: Fun w/ ATs
 

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On the turn, the Dude has as many as 10 outs and there's even a chance he has the best hand unimproved.

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While this is true, isn't it reasonable to put a lot of weight on hands like 89 and A8 in BB's range, which makes it a much tougher call?

Re: Fun w/ ATs
 

Just curious how many outs you guys think you have here. I would calcualte between 5-6. I say 1 out for the backdoor flush, 3 outs for the gutshot(discounting for the fact that it is a one card draw and it is not to the nuts. Against a bigger field I may discount this draw even further.) I would say about 2 outs for the overcard draw.

I would bet this flop especially since it is obvious you had no intentions of folding to a raise back to you.

As played, I would have to be there and know the players involved to have an idea of whether I want to continue on the turn or not.

I think I check this river since it looks like BB could have a two pair hand the ten slowed down especially since he intended to checkraise you on the flop for what appears to be value. He also could have a nine.

Re: Fun w/ ATs
 

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I c-bet this flop 3 handed 100%.

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Why?

Re: Fun w/ ATs
 

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Just curious how many outs you guys think you have here. I would calcualte between 5-6. I say 1 out for the backdoor flush, 3 outs for the gutshot

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wtf? 1 out for a nut bd flush draw on an unpaired board? Is this what you actually think or are you just saying that so that folding looks better?

Re: Fun w/ ATs
 

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I would bet this flop especially since it is obvious you had no intentions of folding to a raise back to you.

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I would have folded if it had gone bet-call-raise, or bet-raise-call.

checking through &gt; paying 1 bet to see the turn &gt; paying 2 bets to see the turn &gt; folding, usually. How does betting help me?

Re: Fun w/ ATs
 

I humbly submit that if you can't value bet this river you probably overvalued your outs on the flop.

-DeathDonkey

Re: Fun w/ ATs
 

the dude, do you reckon that backdoor flush draws come in pretty often? i always figured they came in about 3-4ish percent of the time which i guess you could call 1-2 outs or so (2 if you figure on implieds), and i was always under the impression that we should count them as about 1-1.5 outs to be safe, since sometimes they come in and still lose to a paired board (although this is rare).

i certainly wouldn't consider a bdnfd to be somehow a strong holding, although i do agree with you that your bdnfd can be used in conjunction with the other parts of your hand to end up adding up to a modest draw. combined with your gutter and potentially tainted overs i'd give you several outs, although i find it hard to know for sure.

i think a range of 4-8 outs on the flop seems safe.

Re: Fun w/ ATs
 

In LA this would be an easy value bet, but there are plenty of people in Vegas who will check-fold hands like K8 on this river. That doesn't mean that I had fewer outs on the flop, it just means that my implied odds are very slightly worse.

Re: Fun w/ ATs
 

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checking through &gt; paying 1 bet to see the turn &gt; paying 2 bets to see the turn &gt; folding, usually. How does betting help me?

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Betting gives you the all-important fold equity, and helps narrow your opponents' hand ranges by starting the information exchange. As played, you're facing two bets on the flop with little to no additional information about the button's hand than you had after the preflop action.

Re: Fun w/ ATs
 

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Betting gives you the all-important fold equity, and helps narrow your opponents' hand ranges by starting the information exchange.

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This is exactly the kind of board where betting isn't going to give me any information at all.

Re: Fun w/ ATs
 

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In LA this would be an easy value bet, but there are plenty of people in Vegas who will check-fold hands like K8 on this river.

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Well sure, but did you have specifiic reason to believe you were up against one of those people? Vegas also features many players who would call with far less than 2nd pair because the pot is big and the books tell them not to lay down marginal hands for one bet on the river.

I do think you missed a pretty easy river value bet.

Re: Fun w/ ATs
 

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I humbly submit that if you can't value bet this river you probably overvalued your outs on the flop.

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even if you know on the flop that your T outs are good 90% of the time, valuebetting this river isn't necessarily correct.

Re: Fun w/ ATs
 

Dude - assuming you know button is not 3-betting the flop then I'd have to say this is an expert hand. Well played.

Re: Fun w/ ATs
 

fold the flop.

Re: Fun w/ ATs
 

if you are not folding the flop or turn here you should prolly bet the river