JJ out of position
 

Only have 40 hands on villian but seems very solid (21-17-8). Steal % is 30

I feel like I played this really poorly but not sure the best way to not walk myself into this mess. My idea was to not help build the pot after the flop raise since I don't want to play for stacks here but I feel there is a decent chance my hand is good against his range until the river card. Where is the best place to apply pressure here or dump this hand?

Poker Stars, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

BB: $108.50
UTG: $63
CO: $224
BTN: $87.85
Hero (SB): $119.85

Pre-Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
UTG folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $4</font>, BTN folds, Hero calls $3.50, BB folds

Flop: ($9) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $6</font>, <font color="red">CO raises to $16</font>, Hero calls $10

Turn: ($41) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">CO bets $28</font>, Hero calls $28

River: ($97) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">CO bets $176 and is All-In</font>, Hero folds

Results: $97 Pot ($2 Rake)
CO mucked and WON $95 (+$47 NET)

Hero takes break...

Re: JJ out of position
 

given your preflop play, i hate the rest of the hand.
playing for stacks here is the way to go. i'd usually checkraise the flop. sometimes id bet/3bet. either way, your hand looks FOS.
based on how you got there, id c/r turn. jj on 8832 board is the nuts the majority of the time.

Re: JJ out of position
 

i'd 3bet pf for sure. given that you didn't, you could either c/r the flop (he won't believe you often), 3bet the flop (probably gets a lot of folds but he could think you're FOS still and shove) or crai the turn. i'd consider calling the river honestly, given the super weird way you played the hand.

why don't you want to play for stacks here? given how you got to the flop, basically any line you take that involves a lot of betting/raising is going to look FOS - there's a decent chance villain picks up on that and just shoves over you. this is obv a great result for you.

Re: JJ out of position
 

3 pop preflop would make your life a lot easier.

Re: JJ out of position
 

You should really check/shove the turn when you get there like that. I can't imagine why you wouldn't want to stack off here against an aggro reg.

Re: JJ out of position
 

Id 3 bet this PF

I would have 3 bet the flop after he raised, since I think he'll be raising lots of hands here you are ahead of thinking you are FOS. c/r flop would be good to.

given the way the hand played out, I kinda wanna call this river. He's either got 8x, AA, or a bluff and getting well over 2-1 I think you might be good often enough. Your hand from his POV looks sooo much like a draw or some weak pocket pair, and that river card is such a good scare card for him.

Re: JJ out of position
 

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given the way the hand played out, I kinda wanna call this river. He's either got 8x, AA, or a bluff and getting well over 2-1 I think you might be good often enough. Your hand from his POV looks sooo much like a draw or some weak pocket pair, and that river card is such a good scare card for him.


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I actually considered calling here too. AK/AQ is a good chunk of his range too.

Re: JJ out of position
 

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why don't you want to play for stacks here?

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My biggest problem learning NL is with QQ and JJ I think.
It feels like the likelyhood of running into AA, KK, QQ, or somehow him having an 8 (9-8, 10-8) is likely enough to just be committed completely preflop or just as an overpair.

Should I be commited and try to get all the money with a flop like this? I appreciate the help and not disagreeing with you, I'm just still a little confused...

if I am able get it all in on the flop isn't this a situation where he folds the hands I beat (AK AQ, etc..) and only sticks around when I'm dominated? So I win small pots and lose big ones?

Re: JJ out of position
 

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given the way the hand played out, I kinda wanna call this river. He's either got 8x, AA, or a bluff and getting well over 2-1 I think you might be good often enough. Your hand from his POV looks sooo much like a draw or some weak pocket pair, and that river card is such a good scare card for him.


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I actually considered calling here too. AK/AQ is a good chunk of his range too.

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yeah, but are those hands forcing hero to call for the rest of his chips? I'd think theyd go for a smaller bet given what hero has said about his hand.

Re: JJ out of position
 

Id 3bet pf like every1 said and I usually don't donk so whether or not to c/c or c/r this flop is completely player dependant, if u think he is gonna perceive it as a play or overvalues tp or any overpair - c/raising is the way to go. If u think c/raising turns ur hand into a bluff since he wont stack off with worse then c/c. The problem with ur line is that 3betting this flop and calling a shove is rarely gonna be in ur best interest IMO, whereas flatting the flop raise puts u in a marginal situation for the rest of the hand (conclusion is I wouldnt donk). As played and with no specific reads except that hes solid id lean towards calling but its very marginal, mostly cause of the blank turn and yet a bet.

edit: I'd prob get it in on the turn if I took ur flop line btw (different than getting it in on the flop because u get more money if hes bluffing and make him more commited with a pair of 8s, 99 ot TT).

Re: JJ out of position
 

reraise preflop, reraise flop, bet the turn, check/raise the turn, pretty much getting more money in anywhere here would be a good idea.

Re: JJ out of position
 

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reraise preflop, reraise flop, bet the turn, check/raise the turn, pretty much getting more money in anywhere here would be a good idea.

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Agreed....

Re: JJ out of position
 

i 3bet PF with his stats, as played, u had to raise somewhere here, preferably flop imo

Re: JJ out of position
 

Yes, you do want to play for stacks here. Were you coldcalling preflop because you thought your hand was marginal?

Re: JJ out of position
 

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reraise preflop, reraise flop, bet the turn, check/raise the turn, pretty much getting more money in anywhere here would be a good idea.

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Re: JJ out of position
 

you need to rr pf with JJ, you need to punish people for calling your 3 bet pf with one over or crap. hand is way too hard to play for 1 raise. SPR's make it much more difficult. the pot needs to be big enough on the flop to raise ai, or 3bet ai

Re: JJ out of position
 

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given the way the hand played out, I kinda wanna call this river. He's either got 8x, AA, or a bluff and getting well over 2-1 I think you might be good often enough. Your hand from his POV looks sooo much like a draw or some weak pocket pair, and that river card is such a good scare card for him.


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I actually considered calling here too. AK/AQ is a good chunk of his range too.

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yeah, but are those hands forcing hero to call for the rest of his chips? I'd think theyd go for a smaller bet given what hero has said about his hand.

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Hero has 75-80 left. It's kinda silly to bet 60 cuz you only get value for 60 if you have the best hand, but get shoved on for 15-20 more if you don't. I'd just shove here if i were villain with AK

Re: JJ out of position
 

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i'd usually checkraise the flop. sometimes id bet/3bet.

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If you c/r the flop and get shoved on, or if you are able to bet/3bet: how often are you holding the best hand? Or does the value of the play comes from the time he's folding overcards?

I find it difficult to combine the concept of JJ being the effective nuts on a 8843 flop vs a stealing tag on the button, and the concept of not getting called by much worse hands when I c/r flop, b/3b flop or crai on the turn.

Re: JJ out of position
 

Either call of reraise preflop thats not really the problem but by not reraising on the flop you got no clue what his hand is so check raise the flop first en then you got more information on what to do on the river.

Re: JJ out of position
 

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Either call of reraise preflop thats not really the problem but by not reraising on the flop you got no clue what his hand is so check raise the flop first en then you got more information on what to do on the river.

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INDEED, the biggest problem is INFORMATION, you have no information, and your line seems so week...

Re: JJ out of position
 

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INDEED, the biggest problem is INFORMATION, you have no information, and your line seems so week...

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What good is the information I gain if I am basically committing myself in the process? It feels like I'm just helping him build a big pot if he has a monster and helping him fold if he has crap...I don't understand why this isn't a "win little pots, lose big ones" scenario.

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If you c/r the flop and get shoved on, or if you are able to bet/3bet: how often are you holding the best hand? Or does the value of the play comes from the time he's folding overcards?

I find it difficult to combine the concept of JJ being the effective nuts on a 8843 flop vs a stealing tag on the button, and the concept of not getting called by much worse hands when I c/r flop, b/3b flop or crai on the turn.

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I have the same issue/question. Can someone help us here?

Re: JJ out of position
 

agree that you dont care about 'getting info'. but you should be more than happy to stack 99/TT/flush draws/bluffs and maybe even some underpairs that just don't believe you have an overpair. these players are bad because they call way too often and they don't read hands well. so when you have a strong hand like JJ, you need to get more money in the pot. if the opponents are predictable to fold to a certain amount of aggression, that's fine. but you need to be getting money in the pot until you face that resistance.