.5/1 Turn set against manaic
 

Opponent doesn't just raise anything. He did cap Q7o the last hand. I wouldn't say he plays reasonable post flop just not awful. Here I am trying to maximize value vs top pair or two pair, flush draw on turn, and minimize vs a made flush.

I think he actually will raise the flop with a flush draw though. Hmm this may not be that interesting, thoughts? Do I just c/f flop or bet is standard?

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, Button calls, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB folds, Hero calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

Re: .5/1 Turn set against manaic
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here I am trying to maximize value vs top pair or two pair, flush draw on turn, and minimize vs a made flush.

[/ QUOTE ]
Then why didn't you 3bet the turn?

donking the river achieves nothing unless you either think:
a) he is trying to FSDr u
b) you want to b/3bet the river.

Re: .5/1 Turn set against manaic
 

[ QUOTE ]
Then why didn't you 3bet the turn?

donking the river achieves nothing unless you either think:
a) he is trying to FSDr u
b) you want to b/3bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]I decided on the turn I wanted to play for 4 bets (edit: two from him obv), so hoping he would accomodate and raise--definitely capable of raising with nothing on both streets but it's more likely he does have some hand. Should I be willing to bet/3bet/call turn and river?

Re: .5/1 Turn set against manaic
 

[ QUOTE ]
Should I be willing to bet/3bet/call turn and river?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you should be willing to bet/3-bet the turn and bet/call the river, but I don’t know about 3-betting twice.
If he doesn’t cap you on the turn, he’s either still on a draw, or thinking about getting an extra bet out of you on the river. So, 3-betting the river would probably be donating to a better hand.
And if he caps the turn after your 3-bet, you can check/call the river. Anything more will be spew, IMO.

Re: .5/1 Turn set against manaic
 

Grouch

Preflop and flop are goot.
I call turn, and check call the river. Although you might be able to 3-bet the turn as well. I don't recommend donking the river UI if you didn't 3-bet the turn. If he was bluffing the turn he's folding, and if he was raising witha flush you're beat. I don't see any value in betting that river in that situation; however, if you did 3-bet the turn and you weren't capped you probably could bet/call the river. If you were capped it's an easy check call on the river.

Re: .5/1 Turn set against manaic
 

Grunch:
call the turn and check call the river

Re: .5/1 Turn set against manaic
 

[ QUOTE ]
He did cap Q7o the last hand. I wouldn't say he plays reasonable post flop just not awful

[/ QUOTE ]

Im confused by this maniac read. so he is only a maniac preflop? I honestly cant recall any players who ive seen capping junk preflop who arent awful postflop so I really dont know how to interpret this read. A player doesnt have to be awful to be betting/raising this turn with less than a flushdraw...he just needs to be a lag and have something like two pair or TPTK

[ QUOTE ]
I think he actually will raise the flop with a flush draw though

[/ QUOTE ]

Against a traditional maniac and given this read Im 3balling the turn and call down UI if he caps. Big hands call for big pots against tards even if it takes you to variance city. this is an overplayed 2pair or TP alot if this dude is a maniac or even non-thinking lag. Worse case scenario is that you call down a cap and put in 5 bets instead of 4.

Re: .5/1 Turn set against manaic
 

Three betting the turn is bettter than calling and donking the river. If you saw this player cap preflop with Q7o, I am willing to risk getting 4bet on the turn because there is a great chance our set is ahead.

Re: .5/1 Turn set against manaic
 

Whoo...my first post in forever...

I think I 3bet on the turn with this plan for the river: If he caps the turn, I check/call the river. If he calls my 3bet on the turn, I bet/call the river.

Remember that even if he hit a flush on the turn, you still have outs to a full house. If he did have a flush on the turn you lose one more big bet this way than the way you played it, but you'll be good often enough that you want to be extracting here rather than playing safe.

Re: .5/1 Turn set against manaic
 

Maniac isn't so much a maniac in this hand it seems, he turned on with the flush. I have to call down if I don't 3 bet the turn.

A donk with that river card makes no sense.

Re: .5/1 Turn set against manaic
 

:gurnch:
I don't understand the logic of calling the Turn raise, only to donk the River.
I just feel like typing out some thoughts on one scenario - Flush Draw:
Calling the Turn let's him see the River for as cheap as possible. Then donking the River gives him the opportunity to fold his missed draw. You win the least in this situation. If he had the flush draw and missed, a River check will get you more money. If he missed, he will either check behind or bluff. If he checks behind, you missed no river bets, since he was folding anyway. If he bluffs, you are calling and you make one more bet. A CC on the River also minimizes your losses when he actually has the flush.

Re: .5/1 Turn set against manaic
 

[ QUOTE ]
Opponent doesn't just raise anything. He did cap Q7o the last hand. I wouldn't say he plays reasonable post flop just not awful.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know what the hell this means. He doesn't raise ATC, but he capped Q7o, but he's reasonable postflop but he's not awful?

What exactly do you think "maniac" means? Why do you think this villan is one?

I don't get the stop-n-go, and your explanation that you wanted to play for 4 bets doesn't help much. How'd you come up with 4 bets?

Re: .5/1 Turn set against manaic
 

Frankly i think not 3-betting the turn is silly. If he caps ya, see the river cheap.

SOOO many players like wait until the turn with two-pair, or exploit scare cards. When "mainacs" do that, you just let them bet, and call down-

Give them the rope - they'll do the rest.

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Re: .5/1 Turn set against manaic
 

[ QUOTE ]
Frankly i think not 3-betting the turn is silly. If he caps ya, see the river cheap.

SOOO many players like wait until the turn with two-pair, or exploit scare cards. When "mainacs" do that, you just let them bet, and call down-

[/ QUOTE ]

Long time no see.

Uh, your advice is a little self-contradictory. 3-betting and calling a cap is seeing the river "cheap"? When a maniac pops the turn, call down, but above you said to 3-bet.

Just pointing out some inconsitencies.

Re: .5/1 Turn set against manaic
 

Sorry, i meant showdown, not just the river.

(good to be back)

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Re: .5/1 Turn set against manaic
 

If he's really a maniac, I 3bet the turn without thinking. Your read kind of confused me, though, as to whether or not he is a maniac (is he betting and raising lightly with most any two cards?).

Actually, given read, I think I am still 3betting this turn. If he caps, I c/c the river if I don't fill up.

Re: .5/1 Turn set against manaic
 

Been a while. Let me respond to some questions. He was a preflop maniac and did get out of line on the flop quite a a bit. But, not some raising station. Capable of raising with air every street but not standard. Bets draws like the nuts, overvalues hands, etc.

So not "reasonable" post-flop at all, just not entirely retarded... he played ok after flop once he put in all those bets PF more often than not--but nothing close to optimal. And he doesn't always cap/raise with garbage. His preflop selection just seemed random. Didn't play every hand, somewhere between 45-60vpip with like 35-40 raise.

I missed value on the turn if he had a flush draw and top pair, which I expect him to cap. At no point did I think I was behind but for some reason did not want to play turn/river for max value. IMO I should have 3bet turn for value, called cap and bet/call river.

If the flop were all clubs I am more inclined to think he slowplayed a flush. I thought he had Kx or Tx, a big club, maybe better. He did make a couple of attempts to win pots with nothing by raising every street a few times previous.

Re: .5/1 Turn set against manaic
 

vix, how many hands did you have on this guy?

Re: .5/1 Turn set against manaic
 

[ QUOTE ]
vix, how many hands did you have on this guy?

[/ QUOTE ]I can't seem to find the hand on PokerTracker from memory it was 40+ but less than 60.

Re: .5/1 Turn set against manaic
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
vix, how many hands did you have on this guy?

[/ QUOTE ]I can't seem to find the hand on PokerTracker from memory it was 40+ but less than 60.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how you can have this finely-grained a read on a guy after 50-ish hands.