NL25 KK prefl. shove
 

Ok, I have position and I simply move in w/ KK. There is limping and one raise before me. Original raiser might play decent (not a long history though). I would like to discuss my line.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (7 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

CO ($9.45)
Hero ($29.95)
SB ($31)
BB ($40)
UTG ($5)
MP1 ($24.40)
MP2 ($26.35)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls $0.25, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to $1.25</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $29.95</font>,

Now there´s certainly more than one option here. You don´t see this play very often, so I´d like to hear what you think about it.

This is what I thought:
--&gt; any other reraise size should be big enough to provide against setminers, that is, it´s big enough to fold out most JJ-/TT- hands, plus
--&gt; If he has AA, he´d be coming over the top, and I have to call because the remote posibility of AK in his hand makes this correct, the game being only slightly deeper than 100BB
--&gt; as he´s gonna get me all in with AA anyway, I´d like to focus on gettin the most out of AK and QQ.
--&gt; I´ve been experimenting with shoving w/ AK for a while, and it´s completly amazing what kind of calls you see. Specificaly AK seems to call a lot.
--&gt; and specificaly AK might be hard to melk postflop, as the very last King would have to flop for that.
--&gt; I´m not sure how much value I am loosing against QQ. I´m not shoving here against a bad player, who´s gonna get stacked w/ QQ overpair. But here, the villain probably is a multitabling abc regular who doesn´t necesarrily get stacked if his Queens see a nice flop. And... doesn´t my play like I am getting crazy w/ AK rather than KK?

Is my reasoning way off?

Thank you.

Re: NL25 KK prefl. shove
 

Most NL25 12-24 table nits will call with 1 hand. You might get enough tard calls to offset this, I dunno.

ETA- No it doesn't look like you're going nuts with AK. It looks like AA or maybe KK if you're a maniac

Re: NL25 KK prefl. shove
 

Reraise to 6. IMO. Unless you think you can get a misclick call...

Re: NL25 KK prefl. shove
 

Just losing so much value...why are we afraid of playing poker with position???

Re: NL25 KK prefl. shove
 

[ QUOTE ]
:
--&gt; any other reraise size should be big enough to provide against setminers, that is, it´s big enough to fold out most JJ-/TT- hands

[/ QUOTE ]

This is where you make the monies with big PP.
Many people will try to setmine you regardless of the odds - so give them the chance to make expensive mistakes.
Dont let them away light by forcing them to play correctly.

Re: NL25 KK prefl. shove
 

I like this given specific reads, but absent that, I think a raise to $5 or $6 is great. You _want_ to see a flop here, and you _want_ to play poker.

I think that he has to call more often than he will to counteract the lost value.

Re: NL25 KK prefl. shove
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just losing so much value...why are we afraid of playing poker with position???

[/ QUOTE ]

this is my thoughts exactly, u fold out a lot of hands that u would get value out of if u just 3 bet him, like AK TT-QQ

Re: NL25 KK prefl. shove
 

I like what Sounded Simple said. A lot of setminers will call a big reraise--to $6 or $7 for example--still trying to setmine. I'd rather punish them with a raise like that than push them out entirely.

Re: NL25 KK prefl. shove
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like what Sounded Simple said. A lot of setminers will call a big reraise--to $6 or $7 for example--still trying to setmine. I'd rather punish them with a raise like that than push them out entirely.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really hate these absurd raises. We want calls with our big hands, this is where our profit is derived from.
1. We want to have villain call our 3 bet. Picking dead money is fine, but KK/AA is far more valuable heads up in position after the flop.

2. If we re-raise to around 3-4 our SPR postflop will be 2.5 or 3. This value is easy for hero to get it all in postflop on any Aceless flop. On flops with an Ace, then Cbet and reevaluate turn and river.

Re: NL25 KK prefl. shove
 

what an awful play. reraise to 5 or so and let's play.

Re: NL25 KK prefl. shove
 

If you have a maniac image then this may work. Otherwise I would like to see a flop.

Re: NL25 KK prefl. shove
 

This is a bad play unless you run like 50/45. I'm just going to leave it at that.

Re: NL25 KK prefl. shove
 

My apologies if this comes off as a flame, but this play is all kinds of terrible in my opinion.

[ QUOTE ]
--&gt; any other reraise size should be big enough to provide against setminers, that is, it´s big enough to fold out most JJ-/TT- hands, plus
--&gt; If he has AA, he´d be coming over the top, and I have to call because the remote posibility of AK in his hand makes this correct, the game being only slightly deeper than 100BB
--&gt; as he´s gonna get me all in with AA anyway, I´d like to focus on gettin the most out of AK and QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shoving here helps your opponents play perfectly and is weak-minded thinking. They no longer have a tough decision of calling your preflop raise with a pocket pair without the proper odds or folding, or bluff-raising with the same pocket pair, etc. They now have the easy decision of calling your all-in with AA or properly folding.

The most likely outcome here is you risk a Thanksgiving dinner to win a big mac and fries with your monster hand.

Poker is about winning money, not pots.

[ QUOTE ]
--&gt; I´ve been experimenting with shoving w/ AK for a while, and it´s completly amazing what kind of calls you see. Specificaly AK seems to call a lot.
--&gt; and specificaly AK might be hard to melk postflop, as the very last King would have to flop for that.
--&gt; I´m not sure how much value I am loosing against QQ. I´m not shoving here against a bad player, who´s gonna get stacked w/ QQ overpair. But here, the villain probably is a multitabling abc regular who doesn´t necesarrily get stacked if his Queens see a nice flop. And... doesn´t my play like I am getting crazy w/ AK rather than KK?

[/ QUOTE ]

Open-shoving may work at NL25, and if it really does more often than not, then go for it. You're stunting your growth as a poker player, though, since most of the money made by good players is postflop where opponents make "bigger" mistakes.

Re: NL25 KK prefl. shove
 

[ QUOTE ]
My apologies if this comes off as a flame

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all, fair enough.

Thanks everyone, I learned from it.

Re: NL25 KK prefl. shove
 

--&gt; as he´s gonna get me all in with AA anyway, I´d like to focus on gettin the most out of AK and QQ.

you're gonna get a lot of action from ak,qq this way.

Re: NL25 KK prefl. shove
 

Full stacks are calling this from behind approximately never (I sheepishly admit to trying it before in the past) You need a *very* good player specific reason to do it, basically either your or his table image has to be "total maniac".