The start of a hand?
 

I had been under the impression that once the dealer starts to shuffle, the hand has started. In another post, a poster said I was in error.

1) Is he right?
2) If that is the case, then if a player asks for a deck change during a shuffle, there is no reason for the dealer not to do so immediately. Bummer.

I am asking about cash games not tourney rules.

Re: The start of a hand?
 

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I had been under the impression that once the dealer starts to shuffle, the hand has started. In another post, a poster said I was in error.

1) Is he right?
2) If that is the case, then if a player asks for a deck change during a shuffle, there is no reason for the dealer not to do so immediately. Bummer.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hopefully no dealer on the planet will accede to a request to change the deck and hold up the game once they've started shuffling. That's just common sense. Hopefully the dealer will not hold up the game while waiting for a new deck to arrive after a player asks for a deck change at any time. You say you want a new setup, fine, if the house allows it the dealer can call for it and by golly they should keep right on mixing and shuffling and dealing--don't hold the game up waiting for a setup. I don't think you need a definition of when a hand begins to deal with this, it's just setting policies on when setups can be requested and how the dealers do it.

Re: The start of a hand?
 

Has anybody ever seen even a halfway decent player ask for a setup? Assuming no physical issues with the cards of course. I have not.

Some time back I told a friend that if he ever sees me ask for a setup to put me out of my misery on the spot and take my roll.

BO

Re: The start of a hand?
 

I was thinking mostly for home games. I thought I had read this somehwere - wonder why I was under this impression?

Re: The start of a hand?
 

Home games happens alot. And yes, usually the less than halfway decent players ask.

Re: The start of a hand?
 

Just what do you mean by "the hand has started"?

Can you buy chips after "the hand has started"? If you ask that question, most people would not consider the beginning of the shuffle to be when the "hand has started".

Re: The start of a hand?
 

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Just what do you mean by "the hand has started"?

Can you buy chips after "the hand has started"? If you ask that question, most people would not consider the beginning of the shuffle to be when the "hand has started".

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I dunno. I just thought I read it somehwere. Mostly. I have been invoking it in our homes games for my example.

Re: The start of a hand?
 

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Can you buy chips after "the hand has started"?

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Actually, yes you can. In most rooms, you can buy chips up until the first card is dealt off the deck and be "playing behind" until those chips arrive. Once that card leaves the deck, you have to wait till the next hand for any chip purchases/cash on the table to be in play.

Re: The start of a hand?
 

You may buy chips and play behind before the cards are in the air, meaning before the first card is dealt as noted. \

As far as the "beginning of the hand" from a players standpoint I believe it is when the first card is in the air. From the dealers standpoint as far as procedure is concerned the first riffle of the deck constitutes the beginning of the shuffle and official start of the hand.

It is this period between the first riffle and first card in the air that is the grey area, but straddling, posting, moving seats and playing behind is allowed during this area.

But you should never see a dealer change the shuffling procedure after the first riffle. This is primarily a concern in tournaments. If the dealer has riffled once before the tournament director announces a changing of a level, the hand shall be played on the previous level and change the next hand. This is atleast the policy where I deal, cash games of course allow for the grey area to come into play.

Re: The start of a hand?
 

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Can you buy chips after "the hand has started"?

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Actually, yes you can.

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Ok. How do you define when "the hand has started"?

Re: The start of a hand?
 

There are the rules about how long you have to contest a hand. The statute of limitations there is often "until the first riffle of the next hand", and that's what's in Robert's Rules. So yes, there is some precedent to that being "the start of the next hand". But there are other rules that pick different cutoff times. Robert's Rules say you can buy chips "before cards are dealt" but doesn't specify exactly what he means by that...first riffle, final cut, first card off the deck, first card to the player... I don't see anything specific. Common practice is "until you get your first card" or "until SB gets the first card". Which is also the cutoff for deciding you don't wanna play your blind.

I really don't see a need for a specific, single definition of "the hand has started". I like the rules saying "the cutoff for dealing with THIS is the riffle" or "you must buy chips or announce your intention prior to the first card being dealt off the deck." Beats saying "the end of the hand" or "the start of the hand" and then having a one-size-fits-all attempt at defining that.

Re: The start of a hand?
 

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Has anybody ever seen even a halfway decent player ask for a setup? Assuming no physical issues with the cards of course. I have not.

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I have... there's an asian guy who plays frequently in the games I play, he's a good player, slightly loose and aggressive and smart. He asks for scramble frequently, and deck change sometimes.

Re: The start of a hand?
 

If the question is, "Should the dealer ever stop mid-shuffle?", I would say, "He'd better have a damn good reason."

Neither getting a set-up, nor selling chips, nor being tapped on the shoulder by the relief dealer, qualify as "a good reason".

Re: The start of a hand?
 

although rare, i think even some of the decent or good laggy players can be superstitious.

i believe the hand does start when the shuffling begins, so no deck change imo. But that doesn't mean you can't buy in or opt out of a hand before the cards fly.

Re: The start of a hand?
 

This is a tournament guideline. It is confusing for cash game players, who see little practical use of this technicality, tho' a few good (but rare) have been mentioned.

The most common invocation of this phrase is during tournaments when the blinds go up. If the dealer has started the first riffle, the blinds are still at the previous level.

Setups. When I call for a setup, I do it quickly and hopefully at a time when the board is busy with something else. Unless there's something legitimately wrong with the deck, of course, in which case I get it replaced as quickly as I can.

Re: The start of a hand?
 

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Can you buy chips after "the hand has started"?

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Actually, yes you can.

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Ok. How do you define when "the hand has started"?

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Same way procedure dictates me to define it. The first riffle of the shuffle is the start of a hand. As I said, you can still buy chips after the technical start of a hand, same with straddles, moving seats, even getting up from your blind for a bathroom break, ect..

I'm not sure where you're going with this though as all I did was answer your question of if you can buy chips after the start of a hand.

Re: The start of a hand?
 

I think the most critical aspect of this for cash games is concerning disputes about a hand.

A common rule is that any dispute about a hand must be stated before the start of the next hand. I think a move towards defining when a hand begins as when the first card is in the air is in order.

The circumstances have changed. Many rooms (especially concerning cash games, tourneys to a lesser extent) now employ shuffle machines. There is no longer a "first riffle". To apply the "first riffle" rule would mean that a hand would start when the dealer pushes the green button? I guess? The point is, I don't see a good bright line like the first riffle when using a shuffle machine.

The bright line could be the delivery of the first card to the small blind. Many rooms use that as a cutoff point for straddling, adding on, and things of this nature.