most passive QQ i\'ve played in recent memory...alternatives?
 

Game: Foxwoods 20/40

Description: 2nd must move saturday afternoon game. overall fairly meh game, playing a little tight but still ok. some soft spots interspersed but 2 good players and more than a few tighties. game would greatly improve in an hour or 2 thank goodness.

Player: this hand is against Bob (headphones) for those that know him. i'd say he is a great player. he is very knowledgeable and knows that i know he is thinking and good. i'm pretty sure he respects my game and i haven't ever seen him get outta line w/ me....at least ntohing i know of. in the first must move game he 3 bet my opens a few times and i was giving him some sh*t about it. probably no affect on play though.

Hand: bob opens from EP (i think UTG+1). folded to me i 3bet QQ. folded back to him and he caps i call.

flop is T88 (suits unimportant). he bets i call.

turn is a 4 (or some blank). he bets i call.

river is another blank (maybe a 7 or something). he bets i call.

thoughts?
Barron

Re: most passive QQ i\'ve played in recent memory...alternatives?
 

This is big Bob C right?

If so, I like it. He's not going to get out of line preflop here against a good player oop. Maybe he fires three barrels with AK but thats it and that's only if you maybe hollywooded the turn a bit.

If he raised on the button or lp it'd be a different story.

Re: most passive QQ i\'ve played in recent memory...alternatives?
 

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This is big Bob C right?

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i believe so. he's like 6foot something i think and i guess you can say "big." very nice guy. wears big silver over ear headphones and friends w/ brett.

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If so, I like it. He's not going to get out of line preflop here against a good player oop. Maybe he fires three barrels with AK but thats it and that's only if you maybe hollywooded the turn a bit.

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what exactly would you say his pf capping range is?

i had it at [TT+,AK]

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If he raised on the button or lp it'd be a different story.

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lol. duh! the hand woulda been a ton more fun.

Barron

Re: most passive QQ i\'ve played in recent memory...alternatives?
 

also, the reason i posted this hand is becaause i didn't know how bob's range would mvoe as the hand progressed.

pf i had it at [TT+,AK] given that he raised very early and i 3bet.

the flop bet again didn't change a thing, same range.

the turn bet though, i think AK starts to become much less likely. not quite sure how much less though (i.e. how many hands can i count AK as? )

and on the river, i think AK is way way less likely, though not sure by how much.

also, how would this change if i had JJ?

would raising the flop, calling the 3 bet and foldign the turn bet w/ JJ be better than just calling down ? if so, why? effectively it is kinda the same hand (6 hand difference in range) and if you can do that w/ JJ then QQ should be the same right?

but admittedly he would have less room to hang himswelf w/ JJ if i raise flop so i just called possibly giving AK cheap shots at his 6 v v clean outs.

Barron

Re: most passive QQ i\'ve played in recent memory...alternatives?
 

Someone told me the 20 was all but dead at Foxwoods, this cant be true...can it?

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Hand: bob opens from EP (i think UTG+1). folded to me i 3bet QQ. folded back to him and he caps i call.

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There is no cap HU there and I'm sure Bob is well aware of this, therefore I think you played it fine. I'm feel like he showed you AA-KK here as I doubt he 4-bets HU w/JJ.

Re: most passive QQ i\'ve played in recent memory...alternatives?
 

the only questionable street is the river.

Re: most passive QQ i\'ve played in recent memory...alternatives?
 

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There is no cap HU there and I'm sure Bob is well aware of this, therefore I think you played it fine. I'm feel like he showed you AA-KK here as I doubt he 4-bets HU w/JJ.

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What about the blinds? I'm not sure about FW, but in a lot of rooms the caplessness only applies to a betting round if it was heads up at the beginning of that round.

Re: most passive QQ i\'ve played in recent memory...alternatives?
 

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There is no cap HU there and I'm sure Bob is well aware of this, therefore I think you played it fine. I'm feel like he showed you AA-KK here as I doubt he 4-bets HU w/JJ.

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What about the blinds? I'm not sure about FW, but in a lot of rooms the caplessness only applies to a betting round if it was heads up at the beginning of that round.

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The blinds folded. I've gone 10 bets preflop at Foxwoods back in the day, it was a crowning accomplishment.

Re: most passive QQ i\'ve played in recent memory...alternatives?
 

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the only questionable street is the river.

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so then what should my folding frequency be here?

i don't think JJ is ever out of his range of betting given the way i've played the hand, as QQ isn't. i mean that is one of the major reasons why i chose to play it this way... i.e. to maek the river easy to play: don't play such that his river bet is necessarily a hand that beats mine.

Barron

Re: most passive QQ i\'ve played in recent memory...alternatives?
 

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Someone told me the 20 was all but dead at Foxwoods, this cant be true...can it?

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if by "all but dead" that someone means "amazingly alive and great" or "way worse than a time when it was the greatest game in the history of the world" then "it" is true.

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Hand: bob opens from EP (i think UTG+1). folded to me i 3bet QQ. folded back to him and he caps i call.

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There is no cap HU there and I'm sure Bob is well aware of this, therefore I think you played it fine. I'm feel like he showed you AA-KK here as I doubt he 4-bets HU w/JJ.

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first off, it is an effective cap imo. when he 4 bets, why would i 5 bet AA/KK here? that just tips him off too much and thus i shouldn't 5 bet QQ. and why should i 5 bet AK? so basically 5 betting:

A) gives away my positional advantage since he knows with too high a confidence level my range

2) nets me only an additional small bet.

and D) hurts my ability to get as many big bets as i could have if i just called (related to number A above)

second off, why shouldn't he 4bet TT pf vs. me, nevermind JJ?

that imo is very standard as it has many advantages that help to override some of my positional advantage. this is fairly standard at least in any online full ring game i've played and have discussed this with many great players and have no doubt in my mind that 4 betting (with a cap, even an effective one though i don't think bob necessarilyt hought that) TT/JJ in bob's shoes is good.

thanks for your input,
Barron

Re: most passive QQ i\'ve played in recent memory...alternatives?
 

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Someone told me the 20 was all but dead at Foxwoods, this cant be true...can it?

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if by "all but dead" that someone means "amazingly alive and great" or "way worse than a time when it was the greatest game in the history of the world" then "it" is true.

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Hand: bob opens from EP (i think UTG+1). folded to me i 3bet QQ. folded back to him and he caps i call.

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There is no cap HU there and I'm sure Bob is well aware of this, therefore I think you played it fine. I'm feel like he showed you AA-KK here as I doubt he 4-bets HU w/JJ.

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first off, it is an effective cap imo. when he 4 bets, why would i 5 bet AA/KK here? that just tips him off too much and thus i shouldn't 5 bet QQ. and why should i 5 bet AK? so basically 5 betting:

A) gives away my positional advantage since he knows with too high a confidence level my range

2) nets me only an additional small bet.

and D) hurts my ability to get as many big bets as i could have if i just called (related to number A above)

second off, why shouldn't he 4bet TT pf vs. me, nevermind JJ?

that imo is very standard as it has many advantages that help to override some of my positional advantage. this is fairly standard at least in any online full ring game i've played and have discussed this with many great players and have no doubt in my mind that 4 betting (with a cap, even an effective one though i don't think bob necessarilyt hought that) TT/JJ in bob's shoes is good.

thanks for your input,
Barron

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I would rather err on the side of capping so wide of range that your hand cant be discerned rather than rarely capping, bc of the info it gives. You are forgoing too much value pf and making the bb streets very difficult.

Re: most passive QQ i\'ve played in recent memory...alternatives?
 

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Someone told me the 20 was all but dead at Foxwoods, this cant be true...can it?

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if by "all but dead" that someone means "amazingly alive and great" or "way worse than a time when it was the greatest game in the history of the world" then "it" is true.

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Hand: bob opens from EP (i think UTG+1). folded to me i 3bet QQ. folded back to him and he caps i call.

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There is no cap HU there and I'm sure Bob is well aware of this, therefore I think you played it fine. I'm feel like he showed you AA-KK here as I doubt he 4-bets HU w/JJ.

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first off, it is an effective cap imo. when he 4 bets, why would i 5 bet AA/KK here? that just tips him off too much and thus i shouldn't 5 bet QQ. and why should i 5 bet AK? so basically 5 betting:

A) gives away my positional advantage since he knows with too high a confidence level my range

2) nets me only an additional small bet.

and D) hurts my ability to get as many big bets as i could have if i just called (related to number A above)

second off, why shouldn't he 4bet TT pf vs. me, nevermind JJ?

that imo is very standard as it has many advantages that help to override some of my positional advantage. this is fairly standard at least in any online full ring game i've played and have discussed this with many great players and have no doubt in my mind that 4 betting (with a cap, even an effective one though i don't think bob necessarilyt hought that) TT/JJ in bob's shoes is good.

thanks for your input,
Barron

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My statement about the cap has nothing to do with weather you should 5-bet.

Re: most passive QQ i\'ve played in recent memory...alternatives?
 

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Someone told me the 20 was all but dead at Foxwoods, this cant be true...can it?

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if by "all but dead" that someone means "amazingly alive and great" or "way worse than a time when it was the greatest game in the history of the world" then "it" is true.

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Hand: bob opens from EP (i think UTG+1). folded to me i 3bet QQ. folded back to him and he caps i call.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no cap HU there and I'm sure Bob is well aware of this, therefore I think you played it fine. I'm feel like he showed you AA-KK here as I doubt he 4-bets HU w/JJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

first off, it is an effective cap imo. when he 4 bets, why would i 5 bet AA/KK here? that just tips him off too much and thus i shouldn't 5 bet QQ. and why should i 5 bet AK? so basically 5 betting:

A) gives away my positional advantage since he knows with too high a confidence level my range

2) nets me only an additional small bet.

and D) hurts my ability to get as many big bets as i could have if i just called (related to number A above)

second off, why shouldn't he 4bet TT pf vs. me, nevermind JJ?

that imo is very standard as it has many advantages that help to override some of my positional advantage. this is fairly standard at least in any online full ring game i've played and have discussed this with many great players and have no doubt in my mind that 4 betting (with a cap, even an effective one though i don't think bob necessarilyt hought that) TT/JJ in bob's shoes is good.

thanks for your input,
Barron

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I would rather err on the side of capping so wide of range that your hand cant be discerned rather than rarely capping, bc of the info it gives. You are forgoing too much value pf and making the bb streets very difficult.

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so you conclude the opposite, then?

in that case, what should my 5 betting range be in position in this spot? [TT+, AQs+]?

Barron

Re: most passive QQ i\'ve played in recent memory...alternatives?
 

I am retarded and should read the whole post first. You are not capping here it is hu. If this is a standard tight guy I would 5bet KK and just call with AA and QQ. I dont have any real reason for capping KK except that when you are up against hands like JJ or QQ that you have dominated you will be glad that you got the extra value when board comes bad for their hand. Obv, you can afford to be more deceptive with AA in this spot since you are a huge favorite over anything he would 4bet here.

Re: most passive QQ i\'ve played in recent memory...alternatives?
 

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I am retarded and should read the whole post first. You are not capping here it is hu. If this is a standard tight guy I would 5bet KK and just call with AA and QQ. I dont have any real reason for capping KK except that when you are up against hands like JJ or QQ that you have dominated you will be glad that you got the extra value when board comes bad for their hand. Obv, you can afford to be more deceptive with AA in this spot since you are a huge favorite over anything he would 4bet here.

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so you are in favor of 5betting exactly 1 hand?

i don't think there is an argument in the world that would make that correct. it woudl allow bob to play 100% perfectly against my when i 5 bet.

Barron

Re: most passive QQ i\'ve played in recent memory...alternatives?
 

Well if this spot is coming up so much or you are playing alot of hrs with this guy then you obviously have to start 5betting with QQ and AA, but it is so rare it shouldn't matter that much.

Re: most passive QQ i\'ve played in recent memory...alternatives?
 

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the only questionable street is the river.

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so then what should my folding frequency be here?



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I think this depends a great deal on recent history between the two of you.

Re: most passive QQ i\'ve played in recent memory...alternatives?
 

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the only questionable street is the river.

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so then what should my folding frequency be here?



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I think this depends a great deal on recent history between the two of you.

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i dont think i could fold that river since id ont' think he'd ever check that river w/ JJ assuming nothing strange/crazy/wierd was goign on between us recently.

Barron

Re: most passive QQ i\'ve played in recent memory...alternatives?
 

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the only questionable street is the river.

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so then what should my folding frequency be here?



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I think this depends a great deal on recent history between the two of you.

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i dont think i could fold that river since id ont' think he'd ever check that river w/ JJ assuming nothing strange/crazy/wierd was goign on between us recently.

Barron

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i'm more worried about him bluffing AK here.

Re: most passive QQ i\'ve played in recent memory...alternatives?
 

I know Bob very well, and I would 5 bet preflop and take it from there. He is a very good player and very very aggresive. I would personally play the hand faster vs him, but it all depends on how he perceives you.

I could 5 bet him preflop and put a few bets in on the flop and still feel very confident about my hand, but that is b/c we have so much history and try to beat each other in every hand.

Re: most passive QQ i\'ve played in recent memory...alternatives?
 

A range of AK and TT+ is too loose. AK and TT arent doing so hot vs your 3 bet range and I expect him to know this.

Re: most passive QQ i\'ve played in recent memory...alternatives?
 

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A range of AK and TT+ is too loose. AK and TT arent doing so hot vs your 3 bet range and I expect him to know this.

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but this guys plays good.

Re: most passive QQ i\'ve played in recent memory...alternatives?
 

He definetely 4 bets here with JJ and Possibly 99 as well

Re: most passive QQ i\'ve played in recent memory...alternatives?
 

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A range of AK and TT+ is too loose. AK and TT arent doing so hot vs your 3 bet range and I expect him to know this.

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but this guys plays good.

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What's that suppose to mean?

Unless my ranges are way off and you're 3 betting AJo and stuff, TT has between 27% and 42% EQ and AKo has between 46% and 49%. I dont see how capping can be correct with that kind of equity.

Re: most passive QQ i\'ve played in recent memory...alternatives?
 

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A range of AK and TT+ is too loose. AK and TT arent doing so hot vs your 3 bet range and I expect him to know this.

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but this guys plays good.

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What's that suppose to mean?

Unless my ranges are way off and you're 3 betting AJo and stuff, TT has between 27% and 42% EQ and AKo has between 46% and 49%. I dont see how capping can be correct with that kind of equity.

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sometimes a good player will 4bet a wider range so that 3betting hands will have to fold unfriendly flops.

Re: most passive QQ i\'ve played in recent memory...alternatives?
 

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A range of AK and TT+ is too loose. AK and TT arent doing so hot vs your 3 bet range and I expect him to know this.

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but this guys plays good.

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What's that suppose to mean?

Unless my ranges are way off and you're 3 betting AJo and stuff, TT has between 27% and 42% EQ and AKo has between 46% and 49%. I dont see how capping can be correct with that kind of equity.

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nina, i don't agree with the way you're thinking about this.

equity considerations are important obv, but in this spot, there are other crucial considerations, of which pokerbob touched on.

Barron

Re: most passive QQ i\'ve played in recent memory...alternatives?
 

You beat JJ and AK - 22 combinations.

you lose to AA, KK, QQ & TT - 21 combinations.

he isnt folding any hand that beats you to a raise. And your not folding - the action is obviously a call.

Re: most passive QQ i\'ve played in recent memory...alternatives?
 

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A range of AK and TT+ is too loose. AK and TT arent doing so hot vs your 3 bet range and I expect him to know this.

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but this guys plays good.

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What's that suppose to mean?

Unless my ranges are way off and you're 3 betting AJo and stuff, TT has between 27% and 42% EQ and AKo has between 46% and 49%. I dont see how capping can be correct with that kind of equity.

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nina, i don't agree with the way you're thinking about this.

equity considerations are important obv, but in this spot, there are other crucial considerations, of which pokerbob touched on.

Barron

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With AK there really is no benefit to making them fold unfriendly flops because most of those flops contain an A or a K. Maybe they fold a chop but I dont think that outweighs the times we brick and put in 2sb on the flop vs an overpair.

With TT, theres some benefit to folding out JJ or something on a bad flop but again so many things have to fall in place for that to happen that I cant see it overcoming our equity deficit.

Re: most passive QQ i\'ve played in recent memory...alternatives?
 

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A range of AK and TT+ is too loose. AK and TT arent doing so hot vs your 3 bet range and I expect him to know this.

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but this guys plays good.

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What's that suppose to mean?

Unless my ranges are way off and you're 3 betting AJo and stuff, TT has between 27% and 42% EQ and AKo has between 46% and 49%. I dont see how capping can be correct with that kind of equity.

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nina, i don't agree with the way you're thinking about this.

equity considerations are important obv, but in this spot, there are other crucial considerations, of which pokerbob touched on.

Barron

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With AK there really is no benefit to making them fold unfriendly flops because most of those flops contain an A or a K. Maybe they fold a chop but I dont think that outweighs the times we brick and put in 2sb on the flop vs an overpair.

With TT, theres some benefit to folding out JJ or something on a bad flop but again so many things have to fall in place for that to happen that I cant see it overcoming our equity deficit.

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first off, on average the amt you are putting in extra w/ TT/AK here is maybe slightly more than 1 sb (when he 5 bets). when he doesn't 5 bet, he is in a tough spot even with QQ/KK if the flop comes A high (and you have TT since AK is such a huge combinatoric contributor to your range) and even QQ/JJ if it comes K or A high.

further, he is restrained from raising b/c from his perspective it is either a call down or not...not a raise since it would allow me to get away from TT but make him put more money in when behind to AK.

it also allows him to play less than perfectly against your capping range. if you are only capping JJ+, that is 4 hands. adding AK and TT makes a huge difference and i think more than makes up for the fairly small equity deficit (more so w/ AK than TT, but TT i still think is a capping hand in this spot. personally i cut it off at 99 but it is possibly reasonable to consider not capping TT. i don't think that can be said for AK).

another thing w/ TT is that the equity calculation plays out the whole hand giving AK all 5 cards. it won't necessarily get to do that if the board develops favorably for you (i.e. QJ5 and you bet the flop and he calls...unlikely he'd raise AK there. if you bet the turn - last bet you should put in imo- he will not always call AK getting 5.5:1 since he can be in big trouble from his perspective).

anyways, those are just some thoughts,
Barron

RESULTS
 

Results:

bob raises early i 3 bet QQ he 4 bets i call.

flop is T88 bet call.

turn some blank, bet call.

river some blank, bet call.

bob turns over 99 and i take it.

his body language when he turned over his hand said "ship it" and he was legitimately shocked when i flipped up QQ (i.e. showed up in his face) to which he rapped the table and gave the acknowledging "nice hand" head nod with his headphones on.

Barron

Re: most passive QQ i\'ve played in recent memory...alternatives?
 

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You beat JJ and AK - 22 combinations.

you lose to AA, KK, QQ & TT - 21 combinations.

he isnt folding any hand that beats you to a raise. And your not folding - the action is obviously a call.

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Uh nobody's talking about trying to bluff him off Aces with a call call river-raise line, what about the times he calls a river raise with JJ or occasionally looks him up with AK because of this slightly oddball line. I'm not saying the river is a raise(I don't think it is) but you're looking at it wrong.


--Nobody raises the flop and calls down from there?

Re: most passive QQ i\'ve played in recent memory...alternatives?
 

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You beat JJ and AK - 22 combinations.

you lose to AA, KK, QQ & TT - 21 combinations.

he isnt folding any hand that beats you to a raise. And your not folding - the action is obviously a call.

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Uh nobody's talking about trying to bluff him off Aces with a call call river-raise line, what about the times he calls a river raise with JJ or occasionally looks him up with AK because of this slightly oddball line. I'm not saying the river is a raise(I don't think it is) but you're looking at it wrong.


--Nobody raises the flop and calls down from there?

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if i raise the flop given the read i had on the guy i'd look for a fold somewhere. i don't think JJ/99 3 bet the flop and bet it down. and given that i wanted to see a showdown, i didn't want to put in money and reduce the chances i have the best hand by such a huge degree.

Barron

Re: most passive QQ i\'ve played in recent memory...alternatives?
 

if it was bob or dcb777 id 7 bet preflop because they've 6 bet me with 22/kq because they got a hard-on for trying to outplay me.

Re: most passive QQ i\'ve played in recent memory...alternatives?
 

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if it was bob or dcb777 id 7 bet preflop because they've 6 bet me with 22/kq because they got a hard-on for trying to outplay me.

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Yeah but you and op are different.

Well with DCB I'm going all in confident he has two unders.

Re: most passive QQ i\'ve played in recent memory...alternatives?
 

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--Nobody raises the flop and calls down from there?

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when you take this line, what happens?

Re: most passive QQ i\'ve played in recent memory...alternatives?
 

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--Nobody raises the flop and calls down from there?

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when you take this line, what happens?

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oooh ooh I KNOW I KNOW MR BICHLER!!!!! PICK ME!!!!!

Re: most passive QQ i\'ve played in recent memory...alternatives?
 

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if it was bob or dcb777 id 7 bet preflop because they've 6 bet me with 22/kq because they got a hard-on for trying to outplay me.

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i don't think bob thinks i'm like you guys [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

he has never seen me get out of line (except that KQcc hand which was the first ever hand i played against him and we've talked about it a bit lol) and until this hand, i didn't think he was capable of 4 betting 99 preflop against me.

i've been much more hesitant to mix it up vs. bob than vs. jay. i'll gladly toss money around vs. jay and i've shown him i'm capable of it to get him off my back...that bastard [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

anyways, thanks for all your thoughts guys. definitely a learning experience vs. somebody i thought i had pegged (like it will be the first time i see tommy ears go nutso...haven't seen it yet).

Barron

Re: RESULTS
 

[ QUOTE ]
Results:

bob raises early i 3 bet QQ he 4 bets i call.

flop is T88 bet call.

turn some blank, bet call.

river some blank, bet call.

bob turns over 99 and i take it.

his body language when he turned over his hand said "ship it" and he was legitimately shocked when i flipped up QQ (i.e. showed up in his face) to which he rapped the table and gave the acknowledging "nice hand" head nod with his headphones on.

Barron

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You played the hand absolutly perfectly. this is why i love the passive line

Re: RESULTS
 

Once again nice hand DcifrTHs. Was very surprised to see QQ still didn't know what ur 3 bet range on the button was after I already 3 bet you 3 times. It was a great flop and turn for my hand.

If I was Dcb777,jkamowitz or BK1248 fold QQ preflop your just gonna get out played too offten to play such a marginal hand against my range.

Re: RESULTS
 

Okay Bob, you are the best