2pair facing river shove on 50NL
 

CO is a HUGE nit, 12.7 / 0.9 / 1.5, 110 hands
MP is a donator but that shouldnt concern us much.

This river is a fold imho, what do you think about it?
Also what do you think about the turn bet?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($51.40)
UTG ($38.20)
MP ($4.15)
CO ($48.65)
Button ($37.25)
SB ($17.10)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.50, MP calls $0.50, CO calls $0.50, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero checks.

Flop: ($2.25) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $1.5</font>, UTG calls $1.50, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $3.65</font>, CO calls $3.65, Hero calls $2.15, UTG folds.

Turn: ($14.70) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $10.5</font>, CO calls $10.50.

River: ($35.70) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $34 (All-In)</font>, Hero ...

Re: 2pair facing river shove on 50NL
 

Looks like MP raised because he had a better ace than yours.
Turn bet is good. But did MP fold?? Seems strange if he did considering his flop action.
CO goes all-in on the river but i doubt he has the club flush.
He may have two diamonds and is now trying to steal [since he is a nit]

Re: 2pair facing river shove on 50NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
Looks like MP raised because he had a better ace than yours.
Turn bet is good. But did MP fold?? Seems strange if he did considering his flop action.
CO goes all-in on the river but i doubt he has the club flush.
He may have two diamonds and is now trying to steal [since he is a nit]

[/ QUOTE ]

MP ($4.15): he is allin by the flop
club flush? theres no flush possible.

Re: 2pair facing river shove on 50NL
 

when you lead turn, how are you reacting to a shove?

Re: 2pair facing river shove on 50NL
 

looks like you checked here to induce a bluff because given action in the hand you have to have co beat often enough for it to be +ev, no? does he just SHOVE a hand that beats you here for value after you CHECK to him???

Re: 2pair facing river shove on 50NL
 

meh...just seems fishy to me...i vbet river for about $20.... as played i call ....

Re: 2pair facing river shove on 50NL
 

fwiw as played on flop i fold, but usually with 3 people in i c/c here because you have no kicker and dont want too big of a pot...

Re: 2pair facing river shove on 50NL
 

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fwiw as played on flop i fold, but usually with 3 people in i c/c here because you have no kicker and dont want too big of a pot...

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not leading sucks

Re: 2pair facing river shove on 50NL
 

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when you lead turn, how are you reacting to a shove?

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im am a bit more likely to call a turn shove than a river shove, not alot tho

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looks like you checked here to induce a bluff because given action in the hand you have to have co beat often enough for it to be +ev, no? does he just SHOVE a hand that beats you here for value after you CHECK to him???

[/ QUOTE ]
yes i did

i think hes more likely to just shove the nuts for value than shove on a bluff, he is a huge nit after all

Re: 2pair facing river shove on 50NL
 

Calling this flop raise is spew in a multiway pot. Also, leading in this flop is not that great either as you allow the random junk 2pair/draw hands to build the pot and have position on you. As played fold the flop, assuming you don't, a check/raise all-in works best on the turn if you're looking for value. Honestly, against a nit like this his range is fairly evenly split between AT+ and a set.

Re: 2pair facing river shove on 50NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
Calling this flop raise is spew in a multiway pot. Also, leading in this flop is not that great either as you allow the random junk 2pair/draw hands to build the pot and have position on you. As played fold the flop, assuming you don't, a check/raise all-in works best on the turn if you're looking for value. Honestly, against a nit like this his range is fairly evenly split between AT+ and a set.

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Why is the flop call spew? i get like 6:1 and the raiser is allin already.
I agree that leading the flop is at least questionable tho.
I lead the turn because i didnt expect CO to bet, he didnt show any agression in the hand yet.
His range: i didnt have AK, AQ, AJ in his range. pretty much AT, sets, A6 and A4 maybe.

Re: 2pair facing river shove on 50NL
 

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[ QUOTE ]
when you lead turn, how are you reacting to a shove?

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im am a bit more likely to call a turn shove than a river shove, not alot tho


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you should not be leading this turn without a plan.

Re: 2pair facing river shove on 50NL
 

Pre flop and flop are both pretty bad. When you complete with A2 out of position what are you hoping to flop?

Then a nits nit raises you on the flop and calling even 2 into 12 is goofy as you are hoping to be drawing to 3 clean outs.

If you want to play for stacks on the turn, crai.

Re: 2pair facing river shove on 50NL
 

Turn bet seems fine.

River call would be [censored] terrible. A guy with these stats taking a line that screwy shows up with 666 or 444 like every single time here.

Re: 2pair facing river shove on 50NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Calling this flop raise is spew in a multiway pot. Also, leading in this flop is not that great either as you allow the random junk 2pair/draw hands to build the pot and have position on you. As played fold the flop, assuming you don't, a check/raise all-in works best on the turn if you're looking for value. Honestly, against a nit like this his range is fairly evenly split between AT+ and a set.

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Why is the flop call spew? i get like 6:1 and the raiser is allin already.
I agree that leading the flop is at least questionable tho.
I lead the turn because i didnt expect CO to bet, he didnt show any agression in the hand yet.
His range: i didnt have AK, AQ, AJ in his range. pretty much AT, sets, A6 and A4 maybe.

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I believe your range is off; a villain running 12.7/.9/1.5 WILL NOT be raising hands like AJ, AQ, and typically even AK preflop. When a villain has a preflop-raise lower than 1 it is fairly safe to say he is raising QQ+ and sometimes AK. The VPIP of 12.7 tells us that he is also limping a fairly tight range, meaning that he is essentially only playing any combination of royal cards and pocket pairs. You have to consider that despite the odds you are getting on the flop you are completely dominated and will often be drawing dead or to a split pot. Furthermore, with an aggression factor of 1.5, I would not expect our villain to be showing down flush draws very often. This seems like a hand reading issue more than anything.

Re: 2pair facing river shove on 50NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
I believe your range is off; a villain running 12.7/.9/1.5 WILL NOT be raising hands like AJ, AQ, and typically even AK preflop. When a villain has a preflop-raise lower than 1 it is fairly safe to say he is raising QQ+ and sometimes AK. The VPIP of 12.7 tells us that he is also limping a fairly tight range, meaning that he is essentially only playing any combination of royal cards and pocket pairs. You have to consider that despite the odds you are getting on the flop you are completely dominated and will often be drawing dead or to a split pot. Furthermore, with an aggression factor of 1.5, I would not expect our villain to be showing down flush draws very often. This seems like a hand reading issue more than anything.

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i am aware he isnt raising AQ, AJ. However he called after 2 limper, does that not possibly put lower suited Aces in his range too? I guess that depends on the player and cant be read from stats right?
And yes this is a hand reading issue, the main reason why i posted the hand was because what he really had just boggled my mind.
Results: i fold and he shows down 7s5s, i was like "wtf? o0"
shorty had A9 btw

Re: 2pair facing river shove on 50NL
 

I'm a station, so probably call this, but feel sick as I do...

...but in practice i think you see diamonds enough to make it a call. (LOL or a straight draw)

I would probably have bet the river, TBH, but i'd need to think to decide if letting him bluff is better or not.

I would take the tiny PFR rate with a bit of a pinch of salt, as I have seen it rise a lot in some cases, even after 100ish hands.

I hate the flop call though - not because of MP, I'll race him HU, but because of the CO call and UTG still to act.

Re: 2pair facing river shove on 50NL
 

The flop lead isn't obligatory, but aside from that, it's hard to see an easy way out of this mess.

Unimproved on the turn, it looks like a time for caution, and meanwhile I think you could just check-fold some random diamond. But as it is, you hit a card that's quite likely either terrific for you or about the worst thing you could have caught.

And, damn, on the river I might tell myself that CO probably has been slowplaying a set or his AT (possibly specifically AdTd) just hit, but the decision doesn't seem easy to me.

My guess is that a fold is best. You will get to see the hands, for what that's worth, but I'd imagine that sometimes the information will be tilt-inducing (it would be for me).

Re: 2pair facing river shove on 50NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I believe your range is off; a villain running 12.7/.9/1.5 WILL NOT be raising hands like AJ, AQ, and typically even AK preflop. When a villain has a preflop-raise lower than 1 it is fairly safe to say he is raising QQ+ and sometimes AK. The VPIP of 12.7 tells us that he is also limping a fairly tight range, meaning that he is essentially only playing any combination of royal cards and pocket pairs. You have to consider that despite the odds you are getting on the flop you are completely dominated and will often be drawing dead or to a split pot. Furthermore, with an aggression factor of 1.5, I would not expect our villain to be showing down flush draws very often. This seems like a hand reading issue more than anything.

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i am aware he isnt raising AQ, AJ. However he called after 2 limper, does that not possibly put lower suited Aces in his range too? I guess that depends on the player and cant be read from stats right?
And yes this is a hand reading issue, the main reason why i posted the hand was because what he really had just boggled my mind.
Results: i fold and he shows down 7s5s, i was like "wtf? o0"
shorty had A9 btw

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I TOLD YOU TO CALL MAN THOSE ALLINS ARE LIKE ALWAYS BLUFFS AFTER A CHECK ESPECIALLY WITH A SIDE POT!! WHITEBOYAEHS FTW BIATCHES SHIP THE CORRECTNESS TFCO GUYS

Re: 2pair facing river shove on 50NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
Pre flop and flop are both pretty bad. When you complete with A2 out of position what are you hoping to flop?

Then a nits nit raises you on the flop and calling even 2 into 12 is goofy as you are hoping to be drawing to 3 clean outs.

If you want to play for stacks on the turn, crai.

[/ QUOTE ]
Reread the hand:
- Hero is in the BB. He just checked his option.
- The flop raise is an all-in from the short-stack donator, not the nit.

As to the OP's hand: I'm with the crowd that doesn't like the flop lead. OOP, A-hi flop in a 4-way pot, we're not in very good shape with top pair, worst kicker. The 2 diamonds also make it tougher to play because we'll never know if callers are a better Ace or a flush draw. As played, once the nit calls MP's raise, I'm done with the hand. Even though we may be getting good immediate odds, we're out of position and our reverse implied odds are looking pretty bad.

Re: 2pair facing river shove on 50NL
 

I still stand by my comments despite the results - you can't get too results oriented and draw the conclusion that this bet will always be a bluff from a villain with these stats. I believe that in the long run playing hands the way you did is just spew (unless you have a read, of course). By the way, how many hands did you have on this particular villain for these stats?

Re: 2pair facing river shove on 50NL
 

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CO is a HUGE nit, 12.7 / 0.9 / 1.5, 110 hands


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i didnt think hes bluffing there at all, i folded and was so surprised to see him show up with 75 ther that i posted it to see if anyone would consider calling in that spot. flop and turn a definately marginal, maybe even a little bad, i dont think they are horrible tho.