My first post (not really). $11 NLTRN
 

I have been lurking at 2+2 for a couple of years now, and have finally come to the conclusion thay learning by osmosis aint gonna work for me. I was gonna write my poker history here, but who wants to be bored with that. I need some help with hand number 2 below (and hand 1 if you want). Normally I would fold both (ok, maybe just the first) hands preflop, but he was letting me limp so I didnt fold anything. This hand occured first:

Full Tilt Poker, $11 + $0.50 NL Hold'em Sit n' Go, 15/30 Blinds, 2 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

Hero (SB): 1,665
BB: 1,335

Pre-Flop: (45) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
Hero calls 15, BB checks

Flop: (60) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">BB bets 60</font>, Hero calls 60

Turn: (180) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">BB bets 180</font>, Hero calls 180

River: (540) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">BB bets 300</font>, Hero calls 300

Results: 1,140 Pot
Hero showed 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (a full house, Fives full of Jacks) and WON 570 (+0 NET)
BB showed 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (a full house, Fives full of Jacks) and WON 570 (+0 NET)


Then this came a few hands later:

Full Tilt Poker, $11 + $0.50 NL Hold'em Sit n' Go, 15/30 Blinds, 2 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

Hero (SB): 1,710
BB: 1,290

Pre-Flop: (45) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
Hero calls 15, BB checks

Flop: (60) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">BB bets 60</font>

I think I equally want to fold, call and raise. I probably picked the worst option. What do you think?

ps. Hello to everyone, hopefully you'll be seeing a lot of me (and my excessive use of parentheses).

Re: My first post (not really). $11 NLTRN
 

What is your read on BB? Has he lead before into you from the BB when you limped, and if so, with what hands?

Re: My first post (not really). $11 NLTRN
 

well in hand 1 i would have folded the turn for sure: if a player that passive comes out betting, it is something to be careful of (unless you had a read that he was only passive preflop). therefore i am going to say fold hand 2 on the flop, unless you think you have implied odds to hit 2pair or better (which you might, but fold the turn for sure if you dont improve).

Re: My first post (not really). $11 NLTRN
 

[ QUOTE ]
he was letting me limp so I didnt fold anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your read is that he is passive and you can steal blinds.

Re: My first post (not really). $11 NLTRN
 

Hand 1 fold to the 2nd barrel from a passive player (was he also passive postflop?)

Hand 2 i think is a pretty easy fold on the flop here. exception would be if you have known him to take stabs and then shut down when called, but even then CR may be better cuz it's such a vulnerable hand on that board. standard fold though

Re: My first post (not really). $11 NLTRN
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
he was letting me limp so I didnt fold anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your read is that he is passive and you can steal blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure I understand. Are you saying that against an opponent who will let you limp, you should raise hands like J3o?

Re: My first post (not really). $11 NLTRN
 

dont limp on the button with jack 3 off suit.

Re: My first post (not really). $11 NLTRN
 

Thanks for the replies. Looks like I can fix two leaks with one question. Hope this trend continues.

Re: My first post (not really). $11 NLTRN
 

[ QUOTE ]
dont limp on the button with jack 3 off suit.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems wrong to me. Which option do you think is better?

If you know the guy is checking back the vast majority of the time, calling definitely seems better than folding. I realize J3o is a terrible hand, but you have the button against a random hand.

Do you think raising is better? That doesn't sound right to me either, but I'd be interested in arguments why.

Re: My first post (not really). $11 NLTRN
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
dont limp on the button with jack 3 off suit.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems wrong to me. Which option do you think is better?

If you know the guy is checking back the vast majority of the time, calling definitely seems better than folding. I realize J3o is a terrible hand, but you have the button against a random hand.

Do you think raising is better? That doesn't sound right to me either, but I'd be interested in arguments why.

[/ QUOTE ]

personally i NEVER limp on the button, but limping with jack 3 off suit is just horrible.

what are you achieving by doing it?

Re: My first post (not really). $11 NLTRN
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
dont limp on the button with jack 3 off suit.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems wrong to me. Which option do you think is better?

If you know the guy is checking back the vast majority of the time, calling definitely seems better than folding. I realize J3o is a terrible hand, but you have the button against a random hand.

Do you think raising is better? That doesn't sound right to me either, but I'd be interested in arguments why.

[/ QUOTE ]

personally i NEVER limp on the button, but limping with jack 3 off suit is just horrible.

what are you achieving by doing it?

[/ QUOTE ]

i never limp the button either, but this is a spot where i think it's correct... if you don't like it, are you raising or folding?

Re: My first post (not really). $11 NLTRN
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
he was letting me limp so I didnt fold anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your read is that he is passive and you can steal blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: My first post (not really). $11 NLTRN
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
dont limp on the button with jack 3 off suit.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems wrong to me. Which option do you think is better?

If you know the guy is checking back the vast majority of the time, calling definitely seems better than folding. I realize J3o is a terrible hand, but you have the button against a random hand.

Do you think raising is better? That doesn't sound right to me either, but I'd be interested in arguments why.

[/ QUOTE ]

personally i NEVER limp on the button, but limping with jack 3 off suit is just horrible.

what are you achieving by doing it?

[/ QUOTE ]

never limpin the button is a mistake unless you never play passive calling stations (which would be a second mistake). it achieves a cheap flop where you can outplay the other guy, making up for your weak starting hand, whilst a preflop raise achieves dick all, except inflating the pot with a worse than average hand.

Re: My first post (not really). $11 NLTRN
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
dont limp on the button with jack 3 off suit.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems wrong to me. Which option do you think is better?

If you know the guy is checking back the vast majority of the time, calling definitely seems better than folding. I realize J3o is a terrible hand, but you have the button against a random hand.

Do you think raising is better? That doesn't sound right to me either, but I'd be interested in arguments why.

[/ QUOTE ]

personally i NEVER limp on the button, but limping with jack 3 off suit is just horrible.

what are you achieving by doing it?

[/ QUOTE ]

never limpin the button is a mistake unless you never play passive calling stations (which would be a second mistake). it achieves a cheap flop where you can outplay the other guy, making up for your weak starting hand, whilst a preflop raise achieves dick all, except inflating the pot with a worse than average hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

your wrong.

Re: My first post (not really). $11 NLTRN
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
dont limp on the button with jack 3 off suit.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems wrong to me. Which option do you think is better?

If you know the guy is checking back the vast majority of the time, calling definitely seems better than folding. I realize J3o is a terrible hand, but you have the button against a random hand.

Do you think raising is better? That doesn't sound right to me either, but I'd be interested in arguments why.

[/ QUOTE ]

personally i NEVER limp on the button, but limping with jack 3 off suit is just horrible.

what are you achieving by doing it?

[/ QUOTE ]

i never limp the button either, but this is a spot where i think it's correct... if you don't like it, are you raising or folding?

[/ QUOTE ]

that depends on lots of things. im not sure about this in particular situation because i cant be bothered to re read the OP.

Re: My first post (not really). $11 NLTRN
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
dont limp on the button with jack 3 off suit.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems wrong to me. Which option do you think is better?

If you know the guy is checking back the vast majority of the time, calling definitely seems better than folding. I realize J3o is a terrible hand, but you have the button against a random hand.

Do you think raising is better? That doesn't sound right to me either, but I'd be interested in arguments why.

[/ QUOTE ]

personally i NEVER limp on the button, but limping with jack 3 off suit is just horrible.

what are you achieving by doing it?

[/ QUOTE ]

never limpin the button is a mistake unless you never play passive calling stations (which would be a second mistake). it achieves a cheap flop where you can outplay the other guy, making up for your weak starting hand, whilst a preflop raise achieves dick all, except inflating the pot with a worse than average hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

your wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Awesome insight. I agree that never limping is probably a mistake. I used to blindly follow the "always raise or fold" strategy and I find that it is a bad strategy against people who simply call a lot. IDK about you but "passive" and "calling station" are terms I associate with people who call a lot. If they call most of your button raises, then limping can be good because you can see a flop getting immediate 3:1 odds and you can bail if you miss. Playing a lot of flops against people who suck ass postflop is +EV. You give yourself more flops if you limp sometimes.

Re: My first post (not really). $11 NLTRN
 

please tell me what you are attempting to achieve by limping on the button with hands like jack 3 of suit.

Re: My first post (not really). $11 NLTRN
 

[ QUOTE ]
please tell me what you are attempting to achieve by limping on the button with hands like jack 3 of suit.

[/ QUOTE ]

IF YOU READ MY POST YOU WOULD KNOW. Do not give useless responses to posts, especially ones attacking the content with nothing to back it up. How the hell can you ask what limping J3 achieves when there are two posts which explain it clearly and well? J3 is not the ideal example hand, but none the less it is clear that limping weak hands can be correct.

Do not tell me I am wrong when you cannot back it up and you know less than me about HU sitngos.

Re: My first post (not really). $11 NLTRN
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
please tell me what you are attempting to achieve by limping on the button with hands like jack 3 of suit.

[/ QUOTE ]

IF YOU READ MY POST YOU WOULD KNOW. Do not give useless responses to posts, especially ones attacking the content with nothing to back it up. How the hell can you ask what limping J3 achieves when there are two posts which explain it clearly and well? J3 is not the ideal example hand, but none the less it is clear that limping weak hands can be correct.

Do not tell me I am wrong when you cannot back it up and you know less than me about HU sitngos.

[/ QUOTE ]

REASONS WHY YOU SHOULDNT LIMP ON THE BUTTON IN A HU SIT AND GO WITH JACK 3 OFF SUIT.

1. if he raises out of the BB you will have to fold everytime.

2. if you flop a top pair with the jack and he leads out what do you do?

if you call and he pots it on the turn then river blah blah then how do you know where your at? are you raising if you hit any peice of the flop?

3. if you hit a 3 you cannot conitue in the hand.

4. at best your hoping he check folds to your stupid little min bet on the flop. where as if you raise pre flop your either make a cbet and take it down or, you can fold it pre flop.

5. the opponent in question is a nit.

6. i am not discussing this further as you are clearly much better than me because you make bold aggresive limps.

Re: My first post (not really). $11 NLTRN
 

Nobody said limping J3o was a good idea.

Re: My first post (not really). $11 NLTRN
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
please tell me what you are attempting to achieve by limping on the button with hands like jack 3 of suit.

[/ QUOTE ]

IF YOU READ MY POST YOU WOULD KNOW. Do not give useless responses to posts, especially ones attacking the content with nothing to back it up. How the hell can you ask what limping J3 achieves when there are two posts which explain it clearly and well? J3 is not the ideal example hand, but none the less it is clear that limping weak hands can be correct.

Do not tell me I am wrong when you cannot back it up and you know less than me about HU sitngos.

[/ QUOTE ]

REASONS WHY YOU SHOULDNT LIMP ON THE BUTTON IN A HU SIT AND GO WITH JACK 3 OFF SUIT.

1. if he raises out of the BB you will have to fold everytime.

2. if you flop a top pair with the jack and he leads out what do you do?

if you call and he pots it on the turn then river blah blah then how do you know where your at? are you raising if you hit any peice of the flop?

3. if you hit a 3 you cannot conitue in the hand.

4. at best your hoping he check folds to your stupid little min bet on the flop. where as if you raise pre flop your either make a cbet and take it down or, you can fold it pre flop.

5. the opponent in question is a nit.

6. i am not discussing this further as you are clearly much better than me because you make bold aggresive limps.

[/ QUOTE ]

FFS how dumb are you i didnt say you should always limp the button with J3o. and even though it should be easy to compile a massive list of when not to do it you still manage to come up with a crummy one. your idiocy tilts me. point 3 was especially dumb: since when do you need any of the flop to continue with your hand? hell sometimes its worth continuing with a small pair when you KNOW you are already behind beacuse of implied odds. good god. i dont mind people being wrong if they are looking to improve, and listen to advice they are given, but you think you know it all.

I gave reasons as to why SOMETIMES is is correct to limp WEAK hands. you counter with a list of reasons as to why USUALLY it is wrong to limp J3o. do you see why you suck?

Re: My first post (not really). $11 NLTRN
 

also what waxhax said. i never recommended limping J3o (though for the record i would do it if villain was super passive and would call anything, rare but does happen), just weak hands (was more thinking 97o)

Re: My first post (not really). $11 NLTRN
 

all i can see is that your a losing player @ sit and go's and im not.

/thread

Re: My first post (not really). $11 NLTRN
 

. . . go sharkscope me on pacific (aka where i play)

Re: My first post (not really). $11 NLTRN
 

also even if i had a -100% roi i do not think that would be especially relevant, as this is a theory point.

Re: My first post (not really). $11 NLTRN
 

This horse might be dead, but i'll beat it anyway. After thinking it over, this is what I conclude. J3o. Obviously, we would raise if we think villian folds a lot, so we will assume he calls (and checks) a lot preflop.

There are four categories our opponent could be in. If he is loose-aggressive, we probably want to fold the hand preflop instead of going to war with it. If he is tight-aggressive, maybe we will mess around with a raise with this hand, but we don't want to just call and give him a chance to take the lead when we have such a weak hand. If he is tight-passive, we definitaly want to raise and throw in a c-bet on pretty much any flop.

The only opponent where limping might be good is a loose-passive opponent who will let us see the river cheap and will call our bets with his high card or bottom pair. And in this case we are only gonna bet if we hit our J or 3, hoping he has a high card when we hit a 3, or a lower pair when we hit a jack. This doesn't happen too often, but we may get to showdown for free after getting 3-1 preflop.

So I guess limping is ok against the worst (best) opponents, but this hand should generally be a raise or a fold (I'm not convinced it is so clear on the 56o hand). Hopefully someone who disagrees with the above can explain why.