Playing OOP w/ 99
 

MP is kind of a standard 21/16 TAG. CO is a 15/11/2 nit. How often do people lead here in this spot? What do we do on turn when CO calls? I'm never sure how to play this hand in this spot. When CO call flop I figure there's good chance he has a J, but could also have smaller pr/flush draw.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

MP ($226.05)
<font color="#C00000">CO ($291.80)</font>
Button ($93.50)
SB ($40.10)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($368.20)</font>
UTG ($54.25)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $8</font>, CO calls $8, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls $6.

Flop: ($25) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $18</font>, MP folds, CO calls $18.

Turn: ($61) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">
Hero?

Re: Playing OOP w/ 99
 

bet/fold like $45-$50. if he calls c/f river is probably best

Re: Playing OOP w/ 99
 

c/f. not a huge fan of flop either

Re: Playing OOP w/ 99
 

Versus these opponents I squeeze PF and follow through with a sizeable flop bet and shut down if called.

Re: Playing OOP w/ 99
 

I think I'd just c/f the flop.

edit, and 3bet pf ftw

Re: Playing OOP w/ 99
 

I would slow down now.

His hand looks like AJ/KJ, i don't think he has a heart draw because he would probably raise the flop.

I don't like betting because if he raises you have to fold and if he flat calls your in a nasty spot on the river.

Re: Playing OOP w/ 99
 

wow i didnt see you donked out... i wouldnt do that

Re: Playing OOP w/ 99
 

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c/f. not a huge fan of flop either

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Re: Playing OOP w/ 99
 

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Versus these opponents I squeeze PF and follow through with a sizeable flop bet and shut down if called.

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Standard line here..

Re: Playing OOP w/ 99
 

So, it's standard for you guys to squeeze an MP raiser w/ mid pairs??? This seems contradictory to what a lot of good players advise. Most good players don't like 3betting OOP w/ mid pairs, so why is squeezing so good?

And what is so terrible about donking this particular flop?

Re: Playing OOP w/ 99
 

why did you donk the flop?
i see almost zero value there. if PFR has Jx+ hes calling or more likely rasising and we have to fold, and if he has hearts hes also raising and we have to fold. if he has 88-55 hes folding 95%0f the time.

And that doesnt even take into account the fact that CO is also in the hand!

so definitely c/f turn. sometimes c/f flop, sometimes c/c flop

Re: Playing OOP w/ 99
 

[ QUOTE ]
So, it's standard for you guys to squeeze an MP raiser w/ mid pairs??? This seems contradictory to what a lot of good players advise. Most good players don't like 3betting OOP w/ mid pairs, so why is squeezing so good?

And what is so terrible about donking this particular flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you think it's a good idea to be betting the flop into two people?

Re: Playing OOP w/ 99
 

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[ QUOTE ]
So, it's standard for you guys to squeeze an MP raiser w/ mid pairs??? This seems contradictory to what a lot of good players advise. Most good players don't like 3betting OOP w/ mid pairs, so why is squeezing so good?

And what is so terrible about donking this particular flop?

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Why do you think it's a good idea to be betting the flop into two people?

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I donked flop strictly cuz my hand is good a decent % of the time on that flop, so I'm betting to protect my hand and take the pot down. I DON'T know if this is any good. It's just something I do in certain spots and it seems to work enough if I pick the right spots.

I want someone who squeezes w/ 99 here to tell me why it's better than calling

Re: Playing OOP w/ 99
 

Really hate the flop line here, either c/c, c/r or rr pf. leading flop is about the worst imo

Re: Playing OOP w/ 99
 

i think flop is fine imo. it puts alot of pressure on MP and makes him play his hand straight up. Same also with CO.

sure u can check and get out of hte way if MP bets and CO calls. but i think these nits will check the flop through alot which kinda sucks with our hand.

not saying donking out is optimal but i think it's fine in this instance.

Re: Playing OOP w/ 99
 

Turn your hand into a bluff and bet turn and river or just check/fold

If you were around 100bb you could go for the super sick insane range merging value bluffing CRAI as well, but these stacks suck for that.

Re: Playing OOP w/ 99
 

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Turn your hand into a bluff and bet turn and river or just check/fold

If you were around 100bb you could go for the super sick insane range merging value bluffing CRAI as well, but these stacks suck for that.

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So what's your take on donking here Fonkey?

Re: Playing OOP w/ 99
 

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Turn your hand into a bluff and bet turn and river or just check/fold

If you were around 100bb you could go for the super sick insane range merging value bluffing CRAI as well, but these stacks suck for that.

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So what's your take on donking here Fonkey?

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Since, it's 3 way I'd check to see what the nit is going to do since he'll essentially announce if he has a set or not.

Typical tag is going to auto cbet this flop almost every time, so you gain information when the nit raises you. I'm not a huge fan of the donking, and think check/calling is probably preferable here.

I kind of want to know if he raises the flop with overpairs, which I think he does the majority of the time. I feel he has a weakish one pair hand like a Jack or like 88-55. He's going to check/behind a lot with those as well and probably bet if he has a jack and you check. If you had air you should double barrel but you have a fair amount of showdown value.

Re: Playing OOP w/ 99
 

BGnight,

"This seems contradictory to what a lot of good players advise. Most good players don't like 3betting OOP w/ mid pairs, so why is squeezing so good?"

Where exactly have you read this may I ask? Sounds made up. Generic sentiments such as this are not made by 'good players'.

Re: Playing OOP w/ 99
 

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c/f. not a huge fan of flop either

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Re: Playing OOP w/ 99
 

Fonkey is dead on...you've already repped 44/33/combo draw, so fire again and hope he can fold AJ+..if you know he can't fold then just ch/f the turn.

Donking the flop isn't a part of my game, but if it was I dont think this would be a spot I would choose to do it in. I mean, with the nit and another solid player in the hand, the TAG isn't going to cbet a very wide range very often..so just c/f the flop. If it gets checked around bet the turn for value/protection (depending on what falls obv).

Re: Playing OOP w/ 99
 

[ QUOTE ]
So, it's standard for you guys to squeeze an MP raiser w/ mid pairs??? This seems contradictory to what a lot of good players advise. Most good players don't like 3betting OOP w/ mid pairs, so why is squeezing so good?

And what is so terrible about donking this particular flop?

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Hell yea its standard!! I squeeze anything pretty

Re: Playing OOP w/ 99
 

squeezing is better pf although flatting is OK

don't lead though

Re: Playing OOP w/ 99
 

[ QUOTE ]
BGnight,

"This seems contradictory to what a lot of good players advise. Most good players don't like 3betting OOP w/ mid pairs, so why is squeezing so good?"

Where exactly have you read this may I ask? Sounds made up. Generic sentiments such as this are not made by 'good players'.

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actually squeezing becomes less attractive the lower the pp. i would flat 66s here.

Re: Playing OOP w/ 99
 

Umm.....this isn't 66. This is 99. Big difference. If OP posted the hand and said his hand was 66 I probably wouldn't have made the statement,

"Versus these opponents I squeeze PF and follow through with a sizeable flop bet and shut down if called."

Re: Playing OOP w/ 99
 

lol ur so bad

Re: Playing OOP w/ 99
 

most of the time 99=66=22 after you squeeze. So obv better to squeeze with 66 then 99.

Re: Playing OOP w/ 99
 

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most of the time 99=66=22 after you squeeze. So obv better to squeeze with 66 then 99.

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man this statement makes my head hurt.

Re: Playing OOP w/ 99
 

shouldn't be too hard to understand, not to the extent that you should get a headache anyway

Re: Playing OOP w/ 99
 

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shouldn't be too hard to understand, not to the extent that you should get a headache anyway

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do you know why squeezing with lower pocket pairs is worse? I can tell you if you want.

we have a hand with value aka 66. We want to maintain this value i.e. we don't want to turn our hand into a bluff.

calling 66&gt;squeezing because the money we make from flopping sets/oesds are &gt; then the amount of times we make money off squeezing.

when we squeeze with 99 we are squeezing for value. we are ahead of most villains calling range. This is why squeezing with 99 is better than squeezing with 66. we are squeezing for totally different reasons. v

VALUE OF 99&gt;BLUFF OF 66.

its illogical to turn a hand WITH VALUE into a bluff. even more so when the implied value of our hand is &gt;than the amount of money we gain from a successful squeeze.

Re: Playing OOP w/ 99
 

they ain't calling with 88 often (note i did use the word most, so don't be accusing me of inconsistency again [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]).


i v. rarely squeeze either fwiw

Re: Playing OOP w/ 99
 

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they ain't calling with 88 often (note i did use the word most, so don't be accusing me of inconsistency again [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]).


i v. rarely squeeze either fwiw

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smaller pocket pairs/overcards/suited connectors are way more in their range than 1010-AA.

not squeezing that often is a leak.

Re: Playing OOP w/ 99
 

scs? smaller pockets? lead me to your games sir. I just don't see it that often. We are agreeing with each other about the theory btw, just not about our opponents calling ranges.

i do squeeze, but rarely with pps. not a leak.

Re: Playing OOP w/ 99
 

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scs? smaller pockets? lead me to your games sir. I just don't see it that often. We are agreeing with each other about the theory btw, just not about our opponents calling ranges.

i do squeeze, but rarely with pps. not a leak.

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yeah i misread i didnt see the "either" my bad. most people play horrible in 3bet pots though.

also the opponent thing is situational im just going off my experience in 3bet pots since i 3bet/squeeze light alot.

Re: Playing OOP w/ 99
 

[ QUOTE ]

do you know why squeezing with lower pocket pairs is worse? I can tell you if you want.

we have a hand with value aka 66. We want to maintain this value i.e. we don't want to turn our hand into a bluff.

calling 66&gt;squeezing because the money we make from flopping sets/oesds are &gt; then the amount of times we make money off squeezing.

when we squeeze with 99 we are squeezing for value. we are ahead of most villains calling range. This is why squeezing with 99 is better than squeezing with 66. we are squeezing for totally different reasons. v

VALUE OF 99&gt;BLUFF OF 66.

its illogical to turn a hand WITH VALUE into a bluff. even more so when the implied value of our hand is &gt;than the amount of money we gain from a successful squeeze.

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm not sure I follow this completely. Would you be so kind to make it a little more clear?

Obviously with 99 we protect and get (more) value preflop with a squeeze. But he rest is kinda fuzzy imo [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Playing OOP w/ 99
 

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also the opponent thing is situational im just going off my experience in 3bet pots since i 3bet/squeeze light alot.

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i think if you squeeze light then squeezing w/ 99 here is good since people will call with lower pp's, but for the rest of us (I'm sure many people do not squeeze light), this is a call pf imo.

Re: Playing OOP w/ 99
 

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most of the time 99=66=22 after you squeeze. So obv better to squeeze with 66 then 99.

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man this statement makes my head hurt.

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i'm not sure if anyone has a good handle on when to 3-bet or how to play in the pots even if they can make assumptions about the Villain.

Re: Playing OOP w/ 99
 

Speedlimits,

The reasons you stated for squeezing are very valid on on track with my thought process.

US,

99 do not = 66. And 66 do not = 22. PP's do not have a set amount of value in which they are nicely categorized. What I mean is many of you want to have a graph like picture in the shape of a triangle where each hand fits very nicely in its designated spot of worth. Hands change value depending upon your opponents, your position, your image, blah blah...People rely too much on default value and forget to take into consideration situational value. It would be the same if you would always say AA are AA. They are the best hand, while the board read 7c8c9cTc2d. Absolute and relative strength are very different. This goes for PF as well as post.

As I stated in my original post and reiterated, against these opponents I would probably reraise preflop and bet this flop and shut down if called. Why? Because my hand most likely rates to be the best preflop. On the flop my hand may still be best but is now extremely vulnerable. If one of my opponents goes past this flop, he most likely has a J or better. So I will shut down. I don't feel like being sandwiched postflop and playing a guessing game when my PP is essentially 2nd pair. If the PF coldcaller was a big fish, I probably just call and play some poker. Many reasons for that which need not going into to to derail this thread.

JonnyCosmo,

"lol ur so bad"

STFU. You don't know crap and jumping into this thread just to insult someone is rude and uncalled for. The fact that it is me that you are insulting makes no difference. I despise your kind.

Re: Playing OOP w/ 99
 

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As I stated in my original post and reiterated, against these opponents I would probably reraise preflop and bet this flop and shut down if called. Why? Because my hand most likely rates to be the best preflop. On the flop my hand may still be best but is now extremely vulnerable. If one of my opponents goes past this flop, he most likely has a J or better. So I will shut down. I don't feel like being sandwiched postflop and playing a guessing game when my PP is essentially 2nd pair. If the PF coldcaller was a big fish, I probably just call and play some poker. Many reasons for that which need not going into to to derail this thread.


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nice post.
Question: does this apply IP as well? MP raises, CO calls and we are OTB with either 66 or 99, are we more inclined to 3bet with 99 than we are with 66?