KQ
 

Villain is unknown.

Full Tilt 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks.

Turn: (3.25 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, MP1 folds, Hero...

My thoughts:

If he has KT or KJ and he's bold enough to raise them utg pf, then im sure he'd be wild enough to cbet this flop as well.

If he has KQ or AK, it takes a less wild player to raise them utg pf and who would not cbet the flop.

Could also be some AT+[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] draw.

But i think im chopping or beat.

Re: KQ
 

* g *

Preflop is close. I don't exactly like my hand vs unknown UTG raise. Domination trouble..

Turn.. Leading out is good to protect vs. draws. After the raise chop or beat looks likely IMO too.

Your turn bet could be looked at as a stab at the small pot with a scare card and he could be reraising you on a bluff.

Folding this would feel really weak but probably isn't a bad choice at all. Yet, call down and make a note vs unknown?


If he's weak enough not to c-bet AK when it's checked to him on the flop (despite the drawy board), his raise is strong here.

Re: KQ
 

I think your hand is to strong to not call down vs new player and see enough KQ, KJ, KT and combo draws.

Re: KQ
 

I'd probably call down and get a better read against the unknown for next time. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] We have top pair and a good kicker; I want to take it to the showdown against an unknown. If he has AK or is (stupidly) slowplaying a monster, so be it.

Re: KQ
 

Grunch:
I fold this preflop KQo is really not that great of a hand. KQo is an easy hand to be dominated with OOP.

As played I'd call it down. I think you could be up against an AK that is a typical hand anyone should raise with UTG.

Re: KQ
 

With 2 people in vs an EP raise this probably isn't worth the SB to play. As played, call down and make a note about what he doesn't c-bet with, or if he was trying to get tricky with a big pair on the flop.

Re: KQ
 

[ QUOTE ]

KQo is an easy hand to be dominated with

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, there are only two hands that can dominate it (AK and AQ).

Re: KQ
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

KQo is an easy hand to be dominated with

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, there are only two hands that can dominate it (AK and AQ).

[/ QUOTE ]

Plus QQ, KK, AA.

Re: KQ
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

KQo is an easy hand to be dominated with

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, there are only two hands that can dominate it (AK and AQ).

[/ QUOTE ]

What percentage of an unknown's pre-flop range do you think that is? You want to raise KQ if it isn't raised in front of you but you very rarely want to play it when it has been raised in front of you pre-flop.

Re: KQ
 

Whoops. Forgot high pocket pairs; that's what I get for posting first thing in morning, lol

[ QUOTE ]
What percentage of an unknown's pre-flop range do you think that is?

[/ QUOTE ]

Golly. I'd estimate 50% of the range. Could be more, could be less; since this is an unknown, we can't know for certain [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I think playing KQ from the BB getting 5:1 is perfectly fine. We can get away from it if we miss.

Re: KQ
 

[ QUOTE ]
Whoops. Forgot high pocket pairs; that's what I get for posting first thing in morning, lol

[ QUOTE ]
What percentage of an unknown's pre-flop range do you think that is?

[/ QUOTE ]

Golly. I'd estimate 50% of the range. Could be more, could be less; since this is an unknown, we can't know for certain [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I think playing KQ from the BB getting 5:1 is perfectly fine. We can get away from it if we miss.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't lose money when you miss, you lose money when you hit and call down with 2nd best hand.

Re: KQ
 

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 25.615% 22.52% 03.11% 2610167 360386.67 { KQo }
Hand 1: 42.430% 39.25% 03.19% 4550425 370218.50 { 88+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, AJo+, KQo }
Hand 2: 31.954% 29.90% 02.06% 3466471 239307.33 { 66+, A4s+, K8s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A9o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
</pre><hr />

We may not be the favorite in this hand, but at 5:1, we have enough equity to make this call (see above numbers).

Re: KQ
 

But the problem is you win small pots when you hit, and the others miss and fold, but lose big pots when you hit, are dominated, and call down.

Re: KQ
 

How long did you have to diddle the numbers? A4s is calling? KTo? QTo???

If you want to play KQo to a raise for half price against EP raisers go ahead, but it's not the best hand to play back with.

Re: KQ
 

[ QUOTE ]
How long did you have to diddle the numbers?

[/ QUOTE ]

About 3 seconds. Literally.

Just plugged in 10% PFR and 20% call. You're probably right, though, that this is too wide a range for an unknown; I wasn't thinking there. If you want to play with the numbers, by all means, go ahead. Report your findings. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Let's not be snarky and keep up civil discourse. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: KQ
 

[ QUOTE ]
But the problem is you win small pots when you hit, and the others miss and fold, but lose big pots when you hit, are dominated, and call down.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes sense and definitely gives me something to think about. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Thanks.

I think there is one minor flaw in this logic, though. You're assuming that we donk when we're ahead and make everybody fold, thus dragging a small pot when we win. On the other hand, you say we call down when we're dominated, thus paying off villain big.

I think that if we just call the c-bet in both cases, it helps to mitigate what you're describing. So long as you don't show villain strength and just call the c-bets, you can get better-sized pots when you're ahead.