Straddling before the cards are dealt
 

Bay101 20/40:

SB posts, BB posts her blind and says "we chop, we chop!" because Bay101 only drops $1 if folded to the blinds and they chop (instead of the normal $5 drop).

I jokingly stick out a live straddle when she says this and then take it back before the dealer deals the cards.

As I take it back, another player says it has to stay because it was my action (even though the cards haven't been dealt).

Floorman is called over and he says I technically have to leave it out, but he lets me take it back because 8/9 players agree I was only joking. It's not clear to me if he understands that I took the chips back before the cards are dealt.

Did floorman make the right call? Do I technically have to leave the live straddle out?

Re: Straddling before the cards are dealt
 

Not 100% sure, but my thinking on this would be that the blinds should be posted before the cards fly and at that time a straddle could also be legally posted. Since the action is legal at that point then doing it even jokingly would be a binding action like all others. However, if you weren't clear on it and players agreed that it was just a joke action then I think it was right of the floor to let you take it back.

Re: Straddling before the cards are dealt
 

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Floorman is called over and he says I technically have to leave it out, but he lets me take it back because 8/9 players agree I was only joking. It's not clear to me if he understands that I took the chips back before the cards are dealt.



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Most really stupid floor decisions happen when the floor does not fully understand the situation.

As long as no cards had been dealt, you can take the straddle out.

Say you post your BB in turn, but before the dealer starts you decide to sit out and tell the dealer to deal you out? You are not required to leave the BB in.

Re: Straddling before the cards are dealt
 

Posting the straddle before the cards are dealt is standard where I live, but you always have the option to take the straddle back before the cards are dealt.

I think the floorman handled it well. But as mentioned, it would have been an easy ruling in your favor had you mentioned that your straddle was gone before the cards were dealt.

Re: Straddling before the cards are dealt
 

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Bay101 20/40:

because Bay101 only drops $1 if folded to the blinds and they chop (instead of the normal $5 drop).



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Wow, if they are raking a chop then you're getting screwed. I haven't played in places like vegas or SoCal, but in Detroit, Kansas City, and Minneapolis, you get to keep the whole blind on a chop. Is raking a chop normal in vegas and SoCal?

Re: Straddling before the cards are dealt
 

I had exactly this debate with someone when the topic of re-straddles came up. Restraddles aren't allowed anywhere I know of in Vegas, but folks were debating their merits and I asked "so if I straddle, I'm gonna be kinda ticked if you re-straddle and take away my last action, so I'd just pull back my straddle." Folks tried to tell me I couldn't do that--that once it is put out there I'm bound to it. Yet when I asked why the straddle should be treated differently than the blinds, where you can ALWAYS pick up and leave if you change your mind about playing the hand prior to the cards starting, they had no answer.

Basically folks just fire with their opinions first and think later. IMHO, OF COURSE you can take back your straddle before the cards are in the air. If I start to straddle, and then 4 people pick up and leave, or 4 new players show up, or the lone fish at the table walks off, the conditions have changed and I'm gonna re-evaluate. You think I can't put a wager on the blackjack table, and then rethink it prior to the cards going into the air?

As for raking a chop, California poker is different than most anywhere else. No, they do not rake a chopped pot in Vegas. And most (but not all) have a "no flop, no drop" policy. California poker rooms are greedy bastages.

Re: Straddling before the cards are dealt
 

flytrap - as bav mentioned, California appears to do it differently than almost anywhere. Not only do they rake $1 for a chop, I've read that they also rake the full $4 or $5 or whatever it is if you see a flop.
So if just 2 players go to the flop in a 3/6 game or something and there are only $6 in there then they STILL are going to rake $4 or $5 of it I believe.

Some of that is state law somehow I think.



Bav - I think that once someone restraddles you that also should qualify as the end of your privliege to pull back your straddle.
But then what happens if the game is slowed up because of a dealer change or a fouled deck or something and suddenly 4 players decide to get up and leave and then I want to take back by straddle which obviously impacts the re-straddle guy?
I really don't know but would have to think this would be allowed. Like many rulings in poker I think it just depends.

I think the start of a deal is usually considered to be a realistic cut-off point but then if someone re-straddles you and the game is about to start then you are stuck with it. In this instance your straddle practically counts as 'action' and you can't take it back just because you see that somebody is going to re-straddle.

So with the delay in the game you get a 'reset' in that part of the action perhaps but if nothing changes and there is no delay you lose your ability to take back the straddle after someone restraddles.
Obviously I'm making things up here as I have never seen this happen but I'm just trying to find a logical solution and how I think it SHOULD be done.

Re: Straddling before the cards are dealt
 

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I had exactly this debate with someone when the topic of re-straddles came up. Restraddles aren't allowed anywhere I know of in Vegas, but folks were debating their merits and I asked "so if I straddle, I'm gonna be kinda ticked if you re-straddle and take away my last action, so I'd just pull back my straddle." Folks tried to tell me I couldn't do that--that once it is put out there I'm bound to it. Yet when I asked why the straddle should be treated differently than the blinds, where you can ALWAYS pick up and leave if you change your mind about playing the hand prior to the cards starting, they had no answer.

Basically folks just fire with their opinions first and think later. IMHO, OF COURSE you can take back your straddle before the cards are in the air. If I start to straddle, and then 4 people pick up and leave, or 4 new players show up, or the lone fish at the table walks off, the conditions have changed and I'm gonna re-evaluate. You think I can't put a wager on the blackjack table, and then rethink it prior to the cards going into the air?

As for raking a chop, California poker is different than most anywhere else. No, they do not rake a chopped pot in Vegas. And most (but not all) have a "no flop, no drop" policy. California poker rooms are greedy bastages.

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A little O/T but say a card room only allows a straddle from UTG, but then allows a re-straddles. Before cards come out UTG pulls back his straddle. Does this now nullify the re-straddle too? My thinking is it does.

Re: Straddling before the cards are dealt
 

It's not a "rake", it's a "drop". We're not allowed to have an interest in the size of the pot.

Some rooms in the Bay Area still only have $4 drop, and still only if there's a flop.

Re: Straddling before the cards are dealt
 

It is my understanding that once the dealer starts to shuffle the hand has started. That might matter.

Re: Straddling before the cards are dealt
 

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It's not a "rake", it's a "drop". We're not allowed to have an interest in the size of the pot.

Some rooms in the Bay Area still only have $4 drop, and still only if there's a flop.

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Man, do I play in the only California cardroom that only has a $3 drop (and no jp drop?)

Re: Straddling before the cards are dealt
 

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It's not a "rake", it's a "drop". We're not allowed to have an interest in the size of the pot.

Some rooms in the Bay Area still only have $4 drop, and still only if there's a flop.

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I was assuming that the reference to the $5 drop was including some sort of BBJ.
Are you saying that some games in Calif now have a straight $5 drop? Do these games also take $1 more for a BBJ?

Re: Straddling before the cards are dealt
 

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It is my understanding that once the dealer starts to shuffle the hand has started.

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Wrong. That is often the definition of when the previous hand stops (for correcting errors) or, in tournaments, when the blinds increase.

Re: Straddling before the cards are dealt
 

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Are you saying that some games in Calif now have a straight $5 drop?

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San Jose (Bay101 and Garden City) have straight $5 drop on the spread limit games ( chop = $1 drop but any action, even with no flop, drops full $5 ).
Bay101 Omaha8 has $5 drop. Garden City just re-introduced 6/12 Omaha8 with $6 drop.
No jackpot drop.

Re: Straddling before the cards are dealt
 

quick reply: This stuff rarely (if ever) comes up in real life. I would say if someone has acted on your blind or straddle it is too late to remove it. Example: you post your big blind and next player straddles, I would say it is too late to take the blind down. Same in a place that allows someone to restraddle I would say if they restraddle it is too late to remove the straddle. I can't remeber this ever being an issue. If someone wanted to take it down to leave I would most likely allow that, but if someone posts their blind and suddnely needs to go to the bathroom when their blind is straddled it is a little late to not post.

Re: Straddling before the cards are dealt
 

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Bay101 20/40:

SB posts, BB posts her blind and says "we chop, we chop!" because Bay101 only drops $1 if folded to the blinds and they chop (instead of the normal $5 drop).

I jokingly stick out a live straddle when she says this and then take it back before the dealer deals the cards.

As I take it back, a nit who should mind his own business says it has to stay because it was my action (even though the cards haven't been dealt).


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Re: Straddling before the cards are dealt
 

See, most of the rooms that I've played in that will allow a straddle count up until the first card is pitched as non-binding. However, I think it's very bad form and poker etiquette to even attempt to pull back a straddle - especially when there is a re-straddle and your decision will affect the rest of the table.

If you don't want to straddle - Don't. It's your decision, and your action. If you start throwing bets out there and taking them back, people are going to think you a nit, and worse.

And if casinos are charging a rake or drop for a pot that is chopped down to the blinds (IE No action at all) then you should find somewhere better to play. A lot of places auto-chop if it gets down to the blinds in a ring game.

Re: Straddling before the cards are dealt
 

Re-straddles, AFAIK, aren't allowed anywhere in Vegas.

A person can post a dead min-raise after the straddle, but... who would do that.

Re: Straddling before the cards are dealt
 

Canadian rooms (Fallsview, Casino Niagara) as well as WV poker rooms (Wheeling and Mountaineer) do not allow any straddles whatsoever. All action is considered a blind raise.

Boo to them!

Re: Straddling before the cards are dealt
 

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Example: you post your big blind and next player straddles, I would say it is too late to take the blind down.

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Disagree. If I don't want to lose my BB to a straddle, I should have the right to skip the hand and post my missed blinds later.

To be consistent, if a new player posts his blind in the CO and suddenly UTG announces "Live straddle!", do you feel that the new player has to leave his post in?

Re: Straddling before the cards are dealt
 

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Example: you post your big blind and next player straddles, I would say it is too late to take the blind down.

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Disagree. If I don't want to lose my BB to a straddle, I should have the right to skip the hand and post my missed blinds later.

To be consistent, if a new player posts his blind in the CO and suddenly UTG announces "Live straddle!", do you feel that the new player has to leave his post in?

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I see these as being different. The player posting in the CO does not impact the UTG player's ability to straddle. This isn't a big deal as I have never seen it come up. In your example at some point the chips have to stay in if a new player sits in the CO and posts, then UTG says "straddle" then the cut off says "ok, I'll wait" and UTG responds by taking back their straddle, which causes the CO to post etc. I have never seen a rule address this.

Re: Straddling before the cards are dealt
 

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I see these as being different. The player posting in the CO does not impact the UTG player's ability to straddle.

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Sitting three seats to the left of the button does not bestow upon a player the God given right to straddle.
If a player can take back his big blind (with no straddle) before the cards are dealt, a straddle should not change anything.

I know. A player who doesn't like losing his big blind to a straddler is just a nit. If you let him take his blind out, there will be an argument and the game will grind to a halt. Less money for the house and the dealer.

Re: Straddling before the cards are dealt
 

Well, technically you DO have the right to do it... Until the cards are being pitched. For instance, if you want to sit out your BB, and then repost/buy the button, you can do that. It seems quite nit-ish, and silly to do, but technically, you could do it. The Straddler would then become the BB, and life would go on, and there would be no straddle, at least from that guy.

Do you have the right to do it? Sure. I'm sure you won't make friends as a result, but if losing that 2 bucks, or that position to one person means that much to you, do it up.

And no... The new player would not have to play his hand if there is a live straddle announced. He can, but he would be aware that there is a live straddle, and that it would be x to go on top of his post if he chooses to do that.

Seriously, does this happen where people get that worked up? I mean, I've seen old ladies get pissed off because I'd raise blind in a 3/6Limit game because they were weak players, and didn't know how to/want to put more money in with bad hands pre-flop.

I'd hate to put you in that group, especially since you are educated enough to be posting here!

Re: Straddling before the cards are dealt
 

IMO the whole issue shouldn't be on when you can pull back your straddle, the issue should be why can't you straddle in some rooms.

Re: Straddling before the cards are dealt
 

Well most cardrooms have a policy that as soon as the first card is dealt, regardless of where the card is dealt a pot cannot be straddled. I think it depends on a situation. I think a policy of the straddle being binding if the shuffle has already started or if the hot deck has been removed from the shuffle machine would be good.

Re: Straddling before the cards are dealt
 

All of these comments about straddles being binding if a re-straddle follows sound remarkably like the short debate we had at the table at the Rio that night. Folks don't like the idea that a straddler can renig just 'cause someone restraddles, but they have a hard time coming up with a rule that really fits well and doesn't look terribly different than how the BB is treated and isn't riddled with exceptions.

If I put out a straddle, and then someone spills 32oz of chocolate shake over the table and cards and into the auto shuffler... no, I do not have to stick around and wait 20 minutes while that is cleaned up, nor do I have to move to a new table if they decide moving will be faster than cleaning. If I post a blind or straddle soon as the previous hand is over, and the phone rings, I should get to yank it back and back away from the table and take the call. Or if a dealer is tapped out and I just don't feel like waiting for the rack count and want to hit the head. Or if a fill comes in and the world's slowest chip-counter and stacker is in the box. Or if the habanero enchiladas suddenly decide to come crashing back out at that instant. I just can't come up with a convincing excuse to try to treat a straddle differently than a blind, and by golly you can't commit me play a BB until the cards start coming out.

As for those folks claiming a straddle is action, well, no, I disagree. You can't have action until you have cards. Few places consider the statement "I'm gonna go all-in next hand" binding when the dealer is still shuffling. If that isn't binding, you can't try to apply that to a straddle.

And if you're gonna make a straddle binding, and someone wants to be absolutely sure they aren't going to be bound to it until the cards are moving, they can wait until the cards are cut and the dealer is pulling the first one off to drop a straddle on the table. And that should also cut off any re-straddle attempt unless UTG+2 is rocket-fast. So lotsa special straddle rules really don't fix anything.

And yes, this was a purely academic debate we had at the table at Rio. I know of no place in Vegas that allows re-straddles (though we've gotten away with it a time or two in various venues when the dealer didn't know the rules and didn't call the floor).

Re: Straddling before the cards are dealt
 

I think it is similar to someone (read fish) calling one bet, then realizing it was raised, and taking their bet back because there was no action behind them (because I am nice and don't act unless the action before me is correct). But a straddle is slightly different because it has to be blind to get the added 'benefit' of acting last, but before any cards are dealt, I would easily allow it to be brought back, because jokingly straddling is a part of my act...

Re: Straddling before the cards are dealt
 

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I just can't come up with a convincing excuse to try to treat a straddle differently than a blind, and by golly you can't commit me play a BB until the cards start coming out.


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Really? Here is one: Assuming both the BB and UTG intend on playing the next hand (barring any unforseen circumstances like a spilled milkshake, earthquake or heart attack before the cards are dealt) then the BB has no choice but to post his BB wheras the straddler has a choice, once someone restraddles this should remove the choice of the initial straddler to remove his straddle. This seems only marginally different to me than checking the flop dark when first to act, where I have played this is binding action. Also how is it different than posting the Kill in a kill pot?

Jimbo

Re: Straddling before the cards are dealt
 

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Really? Here is one: Assuming both the BB and UTG intend on playing the next hand (barring any unforseen circumstances like a spilled milkshake, earthquake or heart attack before the cards are dealt) then the BB has no choice but to post his BB wheras the straddler has a choice, once someone restraddles this should remove the choice of the initial straddler to remove his straddle. This seems only marginally different to me than checking the flop dark when first to act, where I have played this is binding action. Also how is it different than posting the Kill in a kill pot?

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Ahah! You left me an opening with that last comment. The kill blind is a continuation from the previous hand; they are linked. You don't get to walk away while a hand is in progress and trying to walk out on the kill is treated like that. That's more akin to trying to pull back a wager you've already made after the flop because suddenly you want to leave the hand. A blind and straddle are both new, unbound to any previous action, and they're happening between hands when players are free to come and go.

The arguments remain unconvincing. I still keep hearing "I don't like his excuse for pulling back the straddle." OTHER excuses are ok, but "I don't want to be re-straddled" as an excuse is not. That's a pretty weak thing on which to try to craft a rule.

Obviously it isn't worth a lot of heartache over this topic. But it's an entertaining gedankenexperiment.