30/60 turn spot
 

I raise AcTc in HJ, HU w/ bb, flop 96c5c.

He c/c.

Turn is offsuit 7. (9657 board). He c/r.

I b/3bet. spew? plan for hand?

Re: 30/60 turn spot
 

I like the 3 bet. It will likely get you a free showdown if you don't improve and an extra bet if you do. You have 12 outs to nuts + 6 outs to top pair which may be good and you have enough hand to showdown u/i. Assuming he just calls the 3 bet, I check behing the river u/i and bet if I hit at least a pair.

Re: 30/60 turn spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
I raise AcTc in HJ, HU w/ bb, flop 96c5c.

He c/c.

Turn is offsuit 7. (9657 board). He c/r.

I b/3bet. spew? plan for hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

why did you bet the turn?

3betting is amazingly bad.

Re: 30/60 turn spot
 

not sure what is worse, betting the turn or 3-betting the turn. both actions were horrible.

Re: 30/60 turn spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I raise AcTc in HJ, HU w/ bb, flop 96c5c.

He c/c.

Turn is offsuit 7. (9657 board). He c/r.

I b/3bet. spew? plan for hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

why did you bet the turn?

3betting is amazingly bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me explain.

When he calls the flop on this board, he either has (a) a pair (b) a club draw (c) a gutshot or (d) nothing. When the turn card comes, he still has all of these things except for (c). It is quite possible that he is bluffing with something dumb like QT on this turn, but if he is, you have the best hand and have him drawing near dead. Let him barrel away. The only thing that happens when you 3bet the turn is that he either folds a worse hand or caps it with a straight. This is basically what happens when you bet, too. Check and take the free card.

Re: 30/60 turn spot
 

Take the free turn card. Never 3-bet here. If you are in the habit of three betting flush draws against what damn sure looks like a straight on the turn, you are hemorrhaging money.

Re: 30/60 turn spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I raise AcTc in HJ, HU w/ bb, flop 96c5c.

He c/c.

Turn is offsuit 7. (9657 board). He c/r.

I b/3bet. spew? plan for hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

why did you bet the turn?

3betting is amazingly bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me explain.

When he calls the flop on this board, he either has (a) a pair (b) a club draw (c) a gutshot or (d) nothing. When the turn card comes, he still has all of these things except for (c). It is quite possible that he is bluffing with something dumb like QT on this turn, but if he is, you have the best hand and have him drawing near dead. Let him barrel away. The only thing that happens when you 3bet the turn is that he either folds a worse hand or caps it with a straight. This is basically what happens when you bet, too. Check and take the free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Without a specific read on the BB or the OP's table image, why can't we bet that turn? I don't think it's horrible.

BB could be a loose player who holds some type of suited 7 in his hand and just paired up or if the OP has been playing fairly solid then a semi-bluff with around 7-12 outs isn't horrible, IMO.

If BB does have a flush draw as you said, then it's a good turn bet. If the BB does have a pair, he either made two pair or is stuck with one pair on a scary board and he might smooth call or even fold. If BB hit his straight and raises, then Hero can simply call getting 6:1 with anywhere from 7-9 outs for the win, 0 or 3 for a chop. Plus a straight might pay him off if a club hits anyway.

I think it just depends on the BB and Hero's image.

3-bet is amazingly bad though, as you said.

Re: 30/60 turn spot
 

3-betting is really bad. You're going to cost yourself 2 more big bets for your draw if 4-bet by an 8.

I don't see why so many people say betting the turn is so bad sans read on BB and being heads up. It's only a "bad bet" because of the check-raise, which we didn't know was coming. If BB folded what could have been overs, a small pocket pair, or a piece of the board with no draw, the result would have been a good one (and we probably wouldn't see this post). It's a semi-bluff turn bet, but don't take it to the extreme by 3-betting your gutshot+nut flush draw. It's only marginally pretty on the turn, especially since it's almost a lock that BB has one of your outs.

Garland

Re: 30/60 turn spot
 

what exactly are you representing?

Re: 30/60 turn spot
 

But by checking the turn we lose value vs. b) and d) and when he donks the river do we call with A high? The 3 bet is obviously horrible but I bet the turn all day long w the nut draw 2 overs and gs.

Re: 30/60 turn spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
But by checking the turn we lose value vs. b) and d) and when he donks the river do we call with A high? The 3 bet is obviously horrible but I bet the turn all day long w the nut draw 2 overs and gs.

[/ QUOTE ]

we don't lose value if he wouldn't have called the turn bet.

Re: 30/60 turn spot
 

All--

I think that it's completely bonkers not to bet this turn. People call this flop with all sorts of stuff, including many no-pair hands, all of which you want to bet against on this turn. Even bad one-pair hands fold sometimes. And there's the obvious poker-101 reason that you only lose a fraction of a bet when you're called by a better hand. Even getting checkraised isn't terrible.

Quick visualization thing: you don't know any hands, and you see a defense situation where the big blind check-calls a 965 twotone flop and then check-folds an offsuit seven turn. Are you very surprised to see the fold? If not, we should definitely definitely bet the turn.

In short, it takes a heck of a read not to bet this turn. I agree that three-betting is pretty bad, but I can think of a few guys who manage to have checkraising ranges here that consist substantially of hands that fold to a third bet. (Seriously.)

Anyway, I belive that checking behind here under anything near standard conditions is a big mistake.

--Nate

Re: 30/60 turn spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I raise AcTc in HJ, HU w/ bb, flop 96c5c.

He c/c.

Turn is offsuit 7. (9657 board). He c/r.

I b/3bet. spew? plan for hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

why did you bet the turn?

3betting is amazingly bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me explain.

When he calls the flop on this board, he either has (a) a pair (b) a club draw (c) a gutshot or (d) nothing. When the turn card comes, he still has all of these things except for (c). It is quite possible that he is bluffing with something dumb like QT on this turn, but if he is, you have the best hand and have him drawing near dead. Let him barrel away. The only thing that happens when you 3bet the turn is that he either folds a worse hand or caps it with a straight. This is basically what happens when you bet, too. Check and take the free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

PokerBob--

Pairs sometimes fold. Club draws always call. Many of his nothing hands are drawing substantially live against us.

In particular, if you disagree that pairs sometimes fold, you cannot dispute that he will have sometimes made very thin preflop/flop calls with nothing hands we don't dominate. If you don't disagree that pairs sometimes fold--and I've played with calling stations of every stripe and basically all of them fold some pairs here--then a bet is mandatory.

--Nate

Re: 30/60 turn spot
 

All--

OK, so since so many people here seemed to feel so strongly about checking, and I think it's terrible, I just asked a very good player and even better poker theorist about this hand.

[ QUOTE ]
bulldogs1729 (11:28:51 PM): hey, happy thanksgiving. quick poker question if you have a minute/ are around.
Very Good Player and Even Better Poker Theorist (11:33:02 PM): yeah what up
bulldogs1729 (11:33:10 PM): limit hold'em
bulldogs1729 (11:33:14 PM): you open the cutoff with Ac Tc
bulldogs1729 (11:33:16 PM): BB calls
bulldogs1729 (11:33:20 PM): flop 9h 6c 5c
bulldogs1729 (11:33:22 PM): BB ch-call
bulldogs1729 (11:33:25 PM): turn 7d
bulldogs1729 (11:33:27 PM): BB checks, you?
VGPaEBPT (11:34:10 PM): bet
VGPaEBPT (11:34:15 PM): wait
VGPaEBPT (11:34:20 PM): is this a trick question?

[/ QUOTE ]

--Nate

Re: 30/60 turn spot
 

[ QUOTE ]


Quick visualization thing: you don't know any hands, and you see a defense situation where the big blind check-calls a 965 twotone flop and then check-folds an offsuit seven turn. Are you very surprised to see the fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

I find it hard to believe that anything that can check/call this flop will now fold the turn when that card comes. Are we really supposed to have an 8 here?

Re: 30/60 turn spot
 

PokerBob--

Anyone who won't fold any pair here will have all sorts of no-pair hands here. Why does he need to put us on an 8 to fold 33 or K5 or 62s, anyway? After all, he's either a terrible hand-range analyst, or he knows that it's terrible to have a narrow betting range in Hero's spot.

--Nate

Re: 30/60 turn spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
PokerBob--

Anyone who won't fold any pair here will have all sorts of no-pair hands here. Why does he need to put us on an 8 to fold 33 or K5 or 62s, anyway? After all, he's either a terrible hand-range analyst, or he knows that it's terrible to have a narrow betting range in Hero's spot.

--Nate

[/ QUOTE ]

in my experience, guys who flop pairs don't fold them, especially on paintless boards. the point is, much more often than not, when he calls the flop and then that card comes, he's got something that beats us and he ain't folding it to a turn bet. in this super tiny pot in a situation where we (a) are likely beat (b) have a boatload of outs and (c) have to call a turn c/r, i think betting sucks.

Re: 30/60 turn spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PokerBob--

Anyone who won't fold any pair here will have all sorts of no-pair hands here. Why does he need to put us on an 8 to fold 33 or K5 or 62s, anyway? After all, he's either a terrible hand-range analyst, or he knows that it's terrible to have a narrow betting range in Hero's spot.

--Nate

[/ QUOTE ]

in my experience, guys who flop pairs don't fold them.

[/ QUOTE ]

PokerBob--

(A) I think that statement is nowhere near true.

(B) As I've said a few times, he doesn't need to fold a pair for the bet to be correct.

--Nate

EDIT: Looks like you edited the post. You seem not to be paying attention. Not only do almost all opponents fold some pairs here, what you wrote is not a sufficient condition for a bet to be incorrect even if you were right. If you think through what this* would imply about his flop and preflop calling ranges, you end up with a pretty incoherent picture of how Villain plays poker.

*this here referring to a situation where an opponent wouldn't fold a pair and yet wouldn't have many unpaired hands in the first place

EDIT 2: Gah, PokerBob edited the post I'm responded to again. That's twice just for this post, after several more posts had occurred in the thread. Trust me, gentle reader. Anyway, I've repeated my position enough now. What PB is saying just doesn't outweigh the obvious benefits of betting.

Re: 30/60 turn spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PokerBob--

Anyone who won't fold any pair here will have all sorts of no-pair hands here. Why does he need to put us on an 8 to fold 33 or K5 or 62s, anyway? After all, he's either a terrible hand-range analyst, or he knows that it's terrible to have a narrow betting range in Hero's spot.

--Nate

[/ QUOTE ]

in my experience, guys who flop pairs don't fold them.

[/ QUOTE ]

PokerBob--

(A) I think that statement is nowhere near true.

(B) As I've said a few times, he doesn't need to fold a pair for the bet to be correct.

--Nate

[/ QUOTE ]

ok.

Re: 30/60 turn spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PokerBob--

Anyone who won't fold any pair here will have all sorts of no-pair hands here. Why does he need to put us on an 8 to fold 33 or K5 or 62s, anyway? After all, he's either a terrible hand-range analyst, or he knows that it's terrible to have a narrow betting range in Hero's spot.

--Nate

[/ QUOTE ]

in my experience, guys who flop pairs don't fold them.

[/ QUOTE ]

PokerBob--

(A) I think that statement is nowhere near true.

(B) As I've said a few times, he doesn't need to fold a pair for the bet to be correct.

--Nate

[/ QUOTE ]

ok.

[/ QUOTE ]

PokerBob--

Also, let me say again that an excellent player literally thought that any suggestion of checking in this spot had to be a joke.

--Nate

Re: 30/60 turn spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PokerBob--

Anyone who won't fold any pair here will have all sorts of no-pair hands here. Why does he need to put us on an 8 to fold 33 or K5 or 62s, anyway? After all, he's either a terrible hand-range analyst, or he knows that it's terrible to have a narrow betting range in Hero's spot.

--Nate

[/ QUOTE ]

in my experience, guys who flop pairs don't fold them.

[/ QUOTE ]

PokerBob--

(A) I think that statement is nowhere near true.

(B) As I've said a few times, he doesn't need to fold a pair for the bet to be correct.

--Nate

[/ QUOTE ]

ok.

[/ QUOTE ]

PokerBob--

Also, let me say again that an excellent player literally thought that any suggestion of checking in this spot had to be a joke.

--Nate

[/ QUOTE ]

ok. is he barreling the river as well when a red 2 comes?

Re: 30/60 turn spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
ok. is he barreling the river as well when a red 2 comes?

[/ QUOTE ]

PB--

I don't know. It's strongly opponent-dependent. I'll ask him when I get a chance. Certainly a turn bet is better than a check whether or not you plan to bluff the river.

--Nate

Re: 30/60 turn spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ok. is he barreling the river as well when a red 2 comes?

[/ QUOTE ]

PB--

I don't know. It's strongly opponent-dependent. I'll ask him when I get a chance. Certainly a turn bet is better than a check whether or not you plan to bluff the river.

--Nate

[/ QUOTE ]

well, i think you and your buddy are dead wrong, so let's just leave it at that.

fwiw, if he is betting the turn, checking the river would be horrible.

Re: 30/60 turn spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ok. is he barreling the river as well when a red 2 comes?

[/ QUOTE ]

PB--

I don't know. It's strongly opponent-dependent. I'll ask him when I get a chance. Certainly a turn bet is better than a check whether or not you plan to bluff the river.

--Nate

[/ QUOTE ]

well, i think you and your buddy are dead wrong, so let's just leave it at that.

fwiw, if he is betting the turn, checking the river would be horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

PB--

Fair enough. By the way, multi-ninja-editing aside, you've been very polite in this thread, so thanks. I hope I've been equally so.

--Nate

Re: 30/60 turn spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
But by checking the turn we lose value vs. b) and d) and when he donks the river do we call with A high? The 3 bet is obviously horrible but I bet the turn all day long w the nut draw 2 overs and gs.

[/ QUOTE ]

which bet has more value for us: the bet that we place and gets called on the turn, or the bet that we put in on the river when we call after the turn checks through?

Re: 30/60 turn spot
 

I just saw this thread. I bet the turn, call the c/r, and river a flush.

Re: 30/60 turn spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just saw this thread. I bet the turn, call the c/r, and river a flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is just awful. if you're gonna river a flush, 3bet the goddamn turn.

Re: 30/60 turn spot
 

betting the turn here is fine i dont know wtf we would check for when we can actually get a better hand to fold somewhat realistically and we have like 12ish basically nut outs if not. 3 betting after getting c/r however is of course horrendous bc you have just cost yourself 4 bets pretty much guaranteed to draw to a flush that should have cost 1-2 bets to draw to.

if villain is never folding a pair then fine check turn but honestly this is like one of the few spots in lhe where people fold a pair somewhat often so we may as well take advantage of it. also in live games we are getting c/r by draw here like never.

*edit*
if we check turn then calling a river bet is horrible. the pot is tiny and we have to give him credit for peeling the flop with no pair no draw on a coordinated board.

i also dont understand pbob's "if you bet turn you have to bet river". most people that stubbornly call turn again with 1 pair no redraw will insta payoff on river. some will fold but they are fairly rare. if they had worse flush draw and hit a pair that they might have folded then oh well.

Re: 30/60 turn spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PokerBob--

Anyone who won't fold any pair here will have all sorts of no-pair hands here. Why does he need to put us on an 8 to fold 33 or K5 or 62s, anyway? After all, he's either a terrible hand-range analyst, or he knows that it's terrible to have a narrow betting range in Hero's spot.

--Nate

[/ QUOTE ]

in my experience, guys who flop pairs don't fold them.

[/ QUOTE ]

PokerBob--

(A) I think that statement is nowhere near true.

(B) As I've said a few times, he doesn't need to fold a pair for the bet to be correct.

--Nate

[/ QUOTE ]

ok.

[/ QUOTE ]

PokerBob--

Also, let me say again that an excellent player literally thought that any suggestion of checking in this spot had to be a joke.

--Nate

[/ QUOTE ]

an excellent player i spoke to said he bets this turn just about never. even spewmaster schneids said he only bets it 33-50% of the time. your buddy clearly needs to reevaluate a few things.

Re: 30/60 turn spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
not sure what is worse, betting the turn or 3-betting the turn. both actions were horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

um... did the OP change the hand? It was a rainbow flop when I made my post.

Re: 30/60 turn spot
 

Grunching :

I like it, check behind / fold the river to a bet. My default is to check behind the turn here, but I understand most people like betting and you have so many outs it can't be far off. Three bet is good for metagame, because you can easily have the 8 (or I can anyway here, haha), your hand could be best (obviously fairly unlikely if called but not entirely impossible), and you have a lot of outs to improve.

If you hit the A or 10 on the river and he leads out it's probably still a fold, but it's close between that and calling.

Re: 30/60 turn spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
All--

OK, so since so many people here seemed to feel so strongly about checking, and I think it's terrible, I just asked a very good player and even better poker theorist about this hand.

[ QUOTE ]
bulldogs1729 (11:28:51 PM): hey, happy thanksgiving. quick poker question if you have a minute/ are around.
Very Good Player and Even Better Poker Theorist (11:33:02 PM): yeah what up
bulldogs1729 (11:33:10 PM): limit hold'em
bulldogs1729 (11:33:14 PM): you open the cutoff with Ac Tc
bulldogs1729 (11:33:16 PM): BB calls
bulldogs1729 (11:33:20 PM): flop 9h 6c 5c
bulldogs1729 (11:33:22 PM): BB ch-call
bulldogs1729 (11:33:25 PM): turn 7d
bulldogs1729 (11:33:27 PM): BB checks, you?
VGPaEBPT (11:34:10 PM): bet
VGPaEBPT (11:34:15 PM): wait
VGPaEBPT (11:34:20 PM): is this a trick question?

[/ QUOTE ]

--Nate

[/ QUOTE ]

Your friend should change his IM-name.

Re: 30/60 turn spot
 

[ QUOTE ]

i also dont understand pbob's "if you bet turn you have to bet river". most people that stubbornly call turn again with 1 pair no redraw will insta payoff on river. some will fold but they are fairly rare. if they had worse flush draw and hit a pair that they might have folded then oh well.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think if we are going to turn our hand into a bluff, then we need to have the balls to see it through. that said, i don't want to turn this hand into a bluff, so i check the turn.

fwiw, i think a pair calls us on the turn almost always, and obv a straight c/rs us. the only better hands that are gonna fold that turn are a AQ-AJ, or a retardedly played AK.

Re: 30/60 turn spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Three bet is good for metagame, because you can easily have the 8 (or I can anyway here, haha)

[/ QUOTE ]

yes thats nice but then he raised us so what does he have that he doesnt care that we can have an 8? ill give you a hint. he has an 8.

Re: 30/60 turn spot
 

[ QUOTE ]

if we check turn then calling a river bet is horrible. the pot is tiny and we have to give him credit for peeling the flop with no pair no draw on a coordinated board.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm not sure this is true. one of the arguments for betting the turn is that he could have clubs, and some seem to think he will call the turn with absolutely nothing. so let him bluff it on the river.

i don't know if i'd call the river, but i am fairly confident that if i'm gonna put a bet in on the big streets here (unimproved), a river call is more profitable than a turn bet.

Re: 30/60 turn spot
 

I think air makes up a decent portion of his range, K2 and the like. He has to think air makes up a giant part of our range.

Re: 30/60 turn spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think air makes up a decent portion of his range, K2 and the like. He has to think air makes up a giant part of our range.

[/ QUOTE ]

you really think he has K2 here?!?!? WTF?!?!?

Re: 30/60 turn spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think air makes up a decent portion of his range, K2 and the like. He has to think air makes up a giant part of our range.

[/ QUOTE ]

honest to god i just went back and reread the op and all the replies to make sure i was in the right thread and replying about the same hand. he peels the flop with K2. then he c/r bluffs no pair no draw on a 4 straight with a flush draw possible board. in a live 30/60 game? i just want to make sure im getting this right.

Re: 30/60 turn spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I just saw this thread. I bet the turn, call the c/r, and river a flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is just awful. if you're gonna river a flush, 3bet the goddamn turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not going to edit/delete this out like someone else did earlier, but wrong [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

I'm sorry, I know you've etched the correct play in your head already by checking the turn. I'm not exactly sure what you're willing to bet on this turn, but if you're only willing to bet an 8 here, this is extremely exploitable.

These are one of these spots were I'm going to take a shot and try to win the pot without improvement. I'd much, much rather bet the turn and check the river unimproved than check the turn and call a river bet unimproved. You said your opponents never fold a pair? Ok, how about AJ? AQ? Maybe AK (forget he didn't 3-bet pre). How about any hand that has 6 outs against us when we're actually ahead (KQ, KJ, QJ)?

[ QUOTE ]
even spewmaster schneids said he only bets it 33-50% of the time

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? Well, while I'm not sure, I believe he plays the majority of his games in high and nosebleed stakes, so maybe that's where he gets his 33-50%. Maybe those players have a different dynamic; I honestly don't know. If he played mid-stakes full time I'd have a hard time believing those numbers wouldn't be higher. Anyhow, it's clear that he at least bets it some of the time while you've pretty much closed the door on it at 0%.

And BTW, there's no requisite to bet the turn and bet the river again. This is an opponent/read situational type of thing. You are allowed to check behind on the river if you feel another bet won't lodge his cards to the muck often enough, however the real purpose of betting the turn is to get his cards into the muck earlier.

If and only if I had information that BB was a habitual check-raiser would I check this turn behind. The default play is to bet, and it isn't even close.

Garland

Re: 30/60 turn spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not exactly sure what you're willing to bet on this turn, but if you're only willing to bet an 8 here, this is extremely exploitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please explain how.

For the record, I never said I'd only bet an 8 here.