Is TAG ever not optimal?
 

I've been thinking about this quite a bit recently so thought I'd make a post about it here. Are there situations where playing with a TAG style isn't optimal? I have very nitty stats around 15/11 and I'm trying to work out if this is down to table conditions or me just being nitty.

I regularly have 3 or 4 people with a vpip of 40+ at my table, of course I try and sit with them to my right but that's not always possible. I tried playing more hands and being more aggressive but typically my pf raise would get called and so would my cbet making it very difficult to continue far post flop still holding A high. Since noting this I've started overlimping a lot of hands in late pos (I'll still never open limp) and not cbetting a lot of the time when I miss the flop. I'll still try to isolate the bad players if I have position and a decent hand preflop so it's not all overlimping, but stuff like small sc, Axs, small pp I often overlimp.

Unless I've got TAGs in the blinds the range of hands I'll attempt to steal with isn't that big. When I've got tighter players in the blinds I'll happily steal with any two, run bluffs if I think they look genuine etc.

Another thing that bothers me a bit is my low W$WSF, it's currently around 35-37. I attribute this to getting a lot of free flops from the bb which I check/fold routinely, and also not cbetting a massive amount (~50%).

Does this sound reasonable or should I be looknig to open up to a 20/18 style regardless?

Re: Is TAG ever not optimal?
 

Stakes? Sample size? Winrate?

Re: Is TAG ever not optimal?
 

28k hands of nl50 ~3.5bb/100
20k hands of nl100 ~2bb/100

so small sample but it just feels like pushing harder will make me lose more when I'm behind rather than making them fold.

Re: Is TAG ever not optimal?
 

Well you could definately improve that winrate, so even if tag might not be optimal, I don't think your style is optimal either.

The question is if there even is an optimal strategy...

Re: Is TAG ever not optimal?
 

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The question is if there even is an optimal strategy...

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yeah, 1st step is to see your opponents cards.

Re: Is TAG ever not optimal?
 

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The question is if there even is an optimal strategy...

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yeah, 1st step is to see your opponents cards.

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Interesting. In order to play optimal, every play you make would have to be the same of that which you would do if you knew the opponents hole cards. And if you could see the holecards and didn't have to avoid "getting caught" you would undisputably play the vast majority of your hands. From this we derive that in an optimal strategy you would play pretty much every hand...

Re: Is TAG ever not optimal?
 

I don't think playing a TAG style is popular because it is optimal (It rarely ever is); however, if played well it is usually, if not always +EV.

Re: Is TAG ever not optimal?
 

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I don't think playing a TAG style is popular because it is optimal (It rarely ever is); however, if played well it is usually, if not always +EV.

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Well said.

Re: Is TAG ever not optimal?
 

Look, lag tag, meow chow, chow [censored] meow. Integrate your game. Play according to your image. If you are nitty, you are going to be able to steal more pots, if you are a lag, you will get more value on your big hands. Both styles work if you play well post flop. Bob Ciaffone wrote an excellent essay on the subject in Improve Your Poker. Check it out if you are interested.

Re: Is TAG ever not optimal?
 

you do realise that when they call your Cbets you often still have the best hand, don't you?

they don't hit the flop any more than you do. you just need to double barell more postflop and isolate more preflop.

sounds like you are a bit scared to play pots against these loons. the way to make money in this game is to get involved in alot of hands with bad players.

to make even more money do the above but with positon and initiative

Re: Is TAG ever not optimal?
 

Can someone tell me what a meow-chow is please? I've been accused of being a mediocre meow-chow tag. Wtf is a meow-chow tag?

Re: Is TAG ever not optimal?
 

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Unless I've got TAGs in the blinds the range of hands I'll attempt to steal with isn't that big. When I've got tighter players in the blinds I'll happily steal with any two, run bluffs if I think they look genuine etc.

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Regarding this point, I think you should read Pokey's awesome post(s) about blind stealing. Stealing the blinds is very profitable, and I think you miss out on a lot of free money by only stealing blinds when you're up against noted TAGs. Granted you have to be prepared to cbet a lot, and double/triple barrel at times, but so much of the money I make is by stealing blinds or by raising, getting called, and then taking pots down with cbets.

Re: Is TAG ever not optimal?
 

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you do realise that when they call your Cbets you often still have the best hand, don't you?

they don't hit the flop any more than you do. you just need to double barell more postflop and isolate more preflop.

sounds like you are a bit scared to play pots against these loons. the way to make money in this game is to get involved in alot of hands with bad players.

to make even more money do the above but with positon and initiative

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To paraphrase a great quote: I don't make money because I am awesome, I make money because everyone else sucks.

Re: Is TAG ever not optimal?
 

I think the most optimal way to play is to constantly change your image and stats depending on table/your image/etc
My usual multi tabling stats are often tagish around 19/14, but I play 1-2 table sessions where I focus on being very loose aggressive. I think this is good for a number of reasons such as;
1) helps my game as I get into different situations (people adjusting to my play, played back at more, etc)
2) people who have me as a tag take a long while to adjust (some multitablers sometimes dont even notice and continue to let me steal from them)
3) Its much easier to get paid off with big hands
etc etc...

I take it you multi table? Try just playing 1-2 tables of LAG and try adjusting to how people adjust to you etc. This will help a lot as u move up the stakes also imo.

Re: Is TAG ever not optimal?
 

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Can someone tell me what a meow-chow is please?

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Re: Is TAG ever not optimal?
 

if you have 3 or 4 people at your table with 40%+ vpips, you're giving up a lot of value by only playing 15% of your hands, you should want to play as many hands as you profitably can (and may be more depending on how they adjust) with these people.

Re: Is TAG ever not optimal?
 

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Unless I've got TAGs in the blinds the range of hands I'll attempt to steal with isn't that big. When I've got tighter players in the blinds I'll happily steal with any two, run bluffs if I think they look genuine etc.

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Regarding this point, I think you should read Pokey's awesome post(s) about blind stealing. Stealing the blinds is very profitable, and I think you miss out on a lot of free money by only stealing blinds when you're up against noted TAGs. Granted you have to be prepared to cbet a lot, and double/triple barrel at times, but so much of the money I make is by stealing blinds or by raising, getting called, and then taking pots down with cbets.

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link to pokey? is it in archives?

yeah, i cant believe 15/11 could be close to optimal in 6 max (i assume this is full?)

also, what do you think of brian townsend's strategy of never limping, period, in either full or 6 max?

Re: Is TAG ever not optimal?
 

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what do you think of brian townsend's strategy of never limping, period, in either full or 6 max?

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Clearly in today's games there are situations that arise where limping (specifically over limping) is higher relative EV than raising.

Some may play devil's advocate and come up with theoretical games where this is not true, but in the current games it is most certainly better to limp than raise in some cases.

One simple example, opponent who only limp reraises AA or KK UTG limps in UTG, everyone folds to you with 76s on the button. Overlimping here can be hugely profitable whereas raising would be like burning whatever money you raised.

soda

Re: Is TAG ever not optimal?
 

Haven't really read thread,but at a table full of huge fish playing 21/17 is buuuuuuuuuuurning money. You should be like 40/20 :P